# Setting Pressure Condition

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 November 15, 2012, 10:24 Setting Pressure Condition #1 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 Hi, first of all, thank you for your help. I am a cfx newbie; but i guess the problem i am looking help for, is very simple. The fact is i can't find any tutorials/doc to solve it. I've modeled a cylinder, which is my porous domain, that stands in a parallelepiped, which is my fluid domain. The fluid domain is filled with Resin, at start, while my porous domain is empty. I tried to model the void defining a new gas material whose viscosity and density are almost 0. OFC, this is a multiphase sim. First question: Is it correct to model the void this way? If not, how to? Let's come to my real concern: i'd like to set the pressure equal to 0 Pa (which is my reference pressure also) in the finite volumes in which void volume fraction is = 1; this has to be a continuos condition and not an initial one. i mean something like: If in "finite volume", void.volume fraction == 1; set pressure = 0 Pa end where the finite volume is every single finite volume of my mesh. Can i do this in someway? Can you help me since i don't even know Fortran? Thank you anyway and sorry for my English.

 November 15, 2012, 17:57 #2 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 12,638 Rep Power: 98 No need for fortran for this, it can be done entirely in CEL. I cannot comment on whether your approach is valid as I do not understand what you are trying to model. Some images would help.

 November 15, 2012, 19:06 #3 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 Ghorrocks, thanks Very much for your reply. I have not my notebook nearby but i will check the robustness of my approach later. First, i'd like to set the pressure codition i spoke about; unluckily i am a newbie at CEL too. Can you tell me where to find some tutorials, or better how to set it, if you like sorry to bother

 November 15, 2012, 20:36 #4 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 12,638 Rep Power: 98 Several of the tutorials which come with CFX use CEL. Have a look at help/CFX/tutorials.

 November 29, 2012, 09:31 #5 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 Hi Guys, i am still here. I have got the basics of CEL now. But i can't yet see how to set a Phase Pressure equal to 0, throughout the sim. I mean i want that Ansys sets the pressure for a phase (air for example) = 0 during all the simulation, and not ONLY as initial condition. Is it possibile to achieve that? Thank you

 November 29, 2012, 12:12 #6 Senior Member   Bruno Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brazil Posts: 273 Rep Power: 13 Hi Marco, What *exactly* are you trying to model? What do you want as an output? I'm asking this because at first sight fixing the pressure doesn't make much sense, unless you don't want to solve the domain with a fixed pressure.

November 29, 2012, 12:40
#7
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Marco Antonio
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 46
Rep Power: 5
Quote:
 Originally Posted by brunoc Hi Marco, What *exactly* are you trying to model? What do you want as an output? I'm asking this because at first sight fixing the pressure doesn't make much sense, unless you don't want to solve the domain with a fixed pressure.
Imagine a cylinder whose basis are "inlet and outlet" boundaries while the remaining surface is a free slip wall. I want a multiphase sim in which resin flows inside the cylinder and Air flows out. Cylinder is airfilled at start. I want the Air.pressure to be always 0 PA because, in truth, it has to work as if it were void. Imagine you generate void into the cylinder and then you let the resin flow trough it. It will move forward due to depression we have in void. Do you Think is it correct to Think that void pressure will be costant during all the sim? Or will it change during the resin filling, growing bigger and slowing resin flow? If the assumption in the first question is right, how can i set the air(void) pressure to be 0 everywhere and everytime? Thanks for your patience

Last edited by marcoymarc; November 29, 2012 at 13:27.

 November 29, 2012, 13:09 #8 Senior Member   Bruno Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brazil Posts: 273 Rep Power: 13 If the resin's viscosity is much larger then the air's (I think it probably is) then the air pressure should be much lower than the pressure inside the resin. Also, if the resin's properties are not dependent on pressure and the air is free to escape do domain (meaning it is not contained in it) than you don't need to worry about the air pressure level. It should be approximately equal to the level set at the outlet.

 November 29, 2012, 13:24 #9 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 Well the fact is that my cylinder is a porous media standing in a fluid domain. Guess the low permeability (10^-13) is not letting Air flow out so easily and its pressure grows. Any ideas on making it work as if it was void?

 November 29, 2012, 17:15 #10 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 12,638 Rep Power: 98 I think Marco has missed a fundamental point here. You cannot set pressure to zero because you need pressure to drive a flow. The pressure difference to drive the small flow of air away from the resin might be tiny, but it needs to be there to get out of the way of the resin. So Marco's idea of fixing pressure to zero will not work and is fundamentally flawed. Having said that, I know Flow-3D uses a unique VOF approach ideally suited for these applications where the free surface is modelled as a zero pressure boundary which can move. This means VOF simulations can be done with explicit modelling of the low density phase... it is a very nice approach but not available in CFX. Anyway, back to the point. You will have very small pressure gradients in this model to push the air out of the way. Why is this not suitable for your model?

December 3, 2012, 11:20
#11
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Marco Antonio
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by ghorrocks I think Marco has missed a fundamental point here. You cannot set pressure to zero because you need pressure to drive a flow. The pressure difference to drive the small flow of air away from the resin might be tiny, but it needs to be there to get out of the way of the resin. So Marco's idea of fixing pressure to zero will not work and is fundamentally flawed. Having said that, I know Flow-3D uses a unique VOF approach ideally suited for these applications where the free surface is modelled as a zero pressure boundary which can move. This means VOF simulations can be done with explicit modelling of the low density phase... it is a very nice approach but not available in CFX. Anyway, back to the point. You will have very small pressure gradients in this model to push the air out of the way. Why is this not suitable for your model?
Hi Ghorrocks.
Sorry for replying this late but i had some connection issues during last few days.
Well, i am not fixing pressure 0 everywhere.
I have got 2 phases, resin (liquid) and something i want to behave like if it was void. While i'll set a pressure different from 0 at inlet for the resin(and so for resin everywhere in the domain), i want the void pressure (air pressure say) to stay always 0.
To understand if my approach is right, i'd like you to answer a question.
If i create vacuum in a bottle, say -50 Pa, what will happen when i let some water flow inside it? Will the vacuum pressure during the transient stay at -50Pa or will it change? Please can you help me with this doubt?

 December 3, 2012, 12:00 #12 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 This is my model. Parallelepiped is my fluid domain, the other one is my porous domain. At inlet i've got resin VF = 1 and a pressure of 500 pa. At outlet resin VF = 0 and pressure = 250 Pa. The initialization for fluid domain is Resin VF = 1 and pressure = 500 pa; in the porous media i've got Void VF = 1 at start and pressure = 0 Pascal. I want Void pressure to be always 0. i defined void as a new material with low density (10^-5kg/m^3) and no viscosity. What happens as i start the sim is that Void pressure grows and this bounds my resin flow trough the porous media to be very small during time. In reality i guess the void pressure stays at 0. How can i model a new gas to be used as void to have exactly that behavior? Can you defenately help me to set pressure at 0 wherever Gas phase is? Thank you. Last edited by marcoymarc; December 3, 2012 at 12:23.

December 3, 2012, 17:02
#13
Super Moderator

Glenn Horrocks
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 12,638
Rep Power: 98
Quote:
 Well, i am not fixing pressure 0 everywhere. I have got 2 phases, resin (liquid) and something i want to behave like if it was void. While i'll set a pressure different from 0 at inlet for the resin(and so for resin everywhere in the domain), i want the void pressure (air pressure say) to stay always 0. To understand if my approach is right, i'd like you to answer a question. If i create vacuum in a bottle, say -50 Pa, what will happen when i let some water flow inside it? Will the vacuum pressure during the transient stay at -50Pa or will it change? Please can you help me with this doubt?
From what I understant of your problem you are trying to fix pressure=0 everywhere where the VF=0. You cannot do this, it will not work. You need to allow the pressure gradients in the air to generate the flows to push the air out of the way. These pressure gradients will be small - if your overall resin pressure gradient is 500Pa then the air pressure gradients could well be 0.001Pa or something tiny like that, but these small gradients are necessary for the air to flow.

If you put water in a bottle at -50Pa (or any pressure for that water) then as long as there is fluid motion there will be small pressure gradients along with it. And a hydrostatic head as well, if applicable.

 December 4, 2012, 07:09 #14 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 I completely agree. The pressure gradient in air should be very small compared to that in resin. And here we come to my concern. Look at pressure on a XZ plane compared to ResinVf after few timesteps O(10^-4): This is ResinVF: And this is Pressure at start: How comes the pressure in Air grows up and becomes comparable to resin's one? Any ideas? Thank you...

 December 4, 2012, 18:07 #15 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 12,638 Rep Power: 98 To sustain a pressure difference across the resin/air interface there needs to be some physics - maybe surface tension, or a transient compressible flow or a solid skin forming. But two fluids with an interface and no other physics will equalise pressure. So it looks like you are seeing this equalisation process, at least an early part of the transient flow which ends up in the equalisation.

 December 5, 2012, 09:28 #16 Member   Marco Antonio Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 46 Rep Power: 5 Ghorrocks, using Air ideal gas (=compressible flow), brings to pressure expected results. Thank you very very much.

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