How to set the properties of a real gas

kiwishall · June 19, 2013, 04:07

I'd like to define a real gas. However I can't be sure how to set the property such as the density and the specific heat with the expressions. So for a real gas, I should set the density as a function of T and P or just T? And the specific heat?
Thanks in advance!

ghorrocks · June 19, 2013, 19:12

Have you read the documentation? Have a look at the real gas models in CFX. Also, your comments suggest you are looking for simply a variable density fluid (eg ideal gas), not a real gas.

kiwishall · June 19, 2013, 21:35

Thanks for your reply!
I have read the help documents. What I need is a material of which the properties vary with T and P,not only the density. The problem is that CFX doesn't work if everything is set as the function of T and P.

ghorrocks · June 20, 2013, 06:30

Which properties do you want to have as a function of T and P? And what function do you want to use?

kiwishall · June 20, 2013, 07:14

I set the specific heat as the function of P and T. But when I set the density as the function of P or both P and T, error occurs. So I want to know others how to set the properties of dynamic and thermodynamic and how to get a better simulation of the actual property value.

ghorrocks · June 20, 2013, 18:46

Setting the density as a function of P and T leads to some very complex terms in the Navier Stokes equations. For gases like ideal gas, and the real gas models these have been taken care of, but if you arbitrarily make up a new constitutive equation they are not accounted for - which is why CFX does not let you do it.

What function are you trying to apply for density?

kiwishall · June 20, 2013, 21:54

I want to set it as a function of T by expressions. And I have gotten a result which is obvious wrong. I don't know why. How do you define a mixture property? Regarding it as a pure substance or mix two pure substance in CFX?

ghorrocks · June 21, 2013, 03:43

CFX already has models to work out the properties of mixtures. If you are modelling a mixture then best define it as its constitutive gases and use a mixture model to work out the properties.

kiwishall · June 21, 2013, 06:07

Is there any other mixture model except the ideal mixture model?

ghorrocks · June 21, 2013, 07:57

Not that I know of, but if you talk to CFX support there may be others.

Do you have a model where the ideal mixture model is not adequate?

kiwishall · June 21, 2013, 08:14

I don't know. But when I mix the substance with rgp files, the solve suggests that Newtons method failed to converge in100 iterations. Even increase the number, the suggestions still occurs. Besides, if only taking one substance into account, one material is gas while the other one is liquid at the working condition. But if I regard the mixture as a pure substance and get the properties in NIST REFPRO, I found the mixture is at the state of gas. So if I only define the material at the liquid state, is it right? And how should I do ?

ghorrocks · June 21, 2013, 08:38

Can you please tell us what materials are in your mixture?

kiwishall · June 21, 2013, 08:42

Methane and ethane. T is about from 200K to 240K. P is from 3MPa to 6MPa.

ghorrocks · June 21, 2013, 09:23

Are they both gasses at this T/P ranges? If they are both gasses then this should be easy with the multicomponent mixture model. If they start to change phase things are a lot more complex, but a multicomponent mixture of a real gas model of each of methane and ethane look like they would work.

kiwishall · June 21, 2013, 09:27

NO...Ethane is at state of liquid. That is why I ask for help.

ghorrocks · June 21, 2013, 09:34

The Peng Robinson real gas model looks like it should be able to cover both vapour and liquid phases - can you use this real gas model to cover it? Which real gas model did you use before?

Note I am saying to use one Peng Robinson real gas model for methane and another one for ethane and combine them together in a multicomponent fluid.

kiwishall · June 21, 2013, 10:01

I didn't use the real gas model for I get the details from the NIST REFPRO. And I define the material with values but not real gas model.
For the real gas model, is there any easy way to get the parameters such as the zero pressure coefficients?

ghorrocks · June 23, 2013, 06:36

I have not looked for this sort of data before for methane and ethane but they are pretty standard engineering gases so should be available. A hunt around and you should find it.

kiwishall · June 23, 2013, 11:50

Okay! Thauk you for your help in the recent days!

June 19, 2013, 04:07	How to set the properties of a real gas	#1
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	I'd like to define a real gas. However I can't be sure how to set the property such as the density and the specific heat with the expressions. So for a real gas, I should set the density as a function of T and P or just T? And the specific heat? Thanks in advance!

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June 19, 2013, 19:12		#2
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	Have you read the documentation? Have a look at the real gas models in CFX. Also, your comments suggest you are looking for simply a variable density fluid (eg ideal gas), not a real gas.

June 19, 2013, 21:35		#3
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	Thanks for your reply! I have read the help documents. What I need is a material of which the properties vary with T and P,not only the density. The problem is that CFX doesn't work if everything is set as the function of T and P.

June 20, 2013, 06:30		#4
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	Which properties do you want to have as a function of T and P? And what function do you want to use?

June 20, 2013, 07:14		#5
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	I set the specific heat as the function of P and T. But when I set the density as the function of P or both P and T, error occurs. So I want to know others how to set the properties of dynamic and thermodynamic and how to get a better simulation of the actual property value.

June 20, 2013, 18:46		#6
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	Setting the density as a function of P and T leads to some very complex terms in the Navier Stokes equations. For gases like ideal gas, and the real gas models these have been taken care of, but if you arbitrarily make up a new constitutive equation they are not accounted for - which is why CFX does not let you do it. What function are you trying to apply for density?

June 20, 2013, 21:54		#7
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	I want to set it as a function of T by expressions. And I have gotten a result which is obvious wrong. I don't know why. How do you define a mixture property? Regarding it as a pure substance or mix two pure substance in CFX?

June 21, 2013, 03:43		#8
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	CFX already has models to work out the properties of mixtures. If you are modelling a mixture then best define it as its constitutive gases and use a mixture model to work out the properties.

June 21, 2013, 06:07		#9
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	Is there any other mixture model except the ideal mixture model?

June 21, 2013, 07:57		#10
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	Not that I know of, but if you talk to CFX support there may be others. Do you have a model where the ideal mixture model is not adequate?

June 21, 2013, 08:14		#11
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	I don't know. But when I mix the substance with rgp files, the solve suggests that Newtons method failed to converge in100 iterations. Even increase the number, the suggestions still occurs. Besides, if only taking one substance into account, one material is gas while the other one is liquid at the working condition. But if I regard the mixture as a pure substance and get the properties in NIST REFPRO, I found the mixture is at the state of gas. So if I only define the material at the liquid state, is it right? And how should I do ?

June 21, 2013, 08:38		#12
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	Can you please tell us what materials are in your mixture?

June 21, 2013, 08:42		#13
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	Methane and ethane. T is about from 200K to 240K. P is from 3MPa to 6MPa.

June 21, 2013, 09:23		#14
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	Are they both gasses at this T/P ranges? If they are both gasses then this should be easy with the multicomponent mixture model. If they start to change phase things are a lot more complex, but a multicomponent mixture of a real gas model of each of methane and ethane look like they would work.

June 21, 2013, 09:27		#15
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	NO...Ethane is at state of liquid. That is why I ask for help.

June 21, 2013, 09:34		#16
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	The Peng Robinson real gas model looks like it should be able to cover both vapour and liquid phases - can you use this real gas model to cover it? Which real gas model did you use before? Note I am saying to use one Peng Robinson real gas model for methane and another one for ethane and combine them together in a multicomponent fluid.

June 21, 2013, 10:01		#17
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	I didn't use the real gas model for I get the details from the NIST REFPRO. And I define the material with values but not real gas model. For the real gas model, is there any easy way to get the parameters such as the zero pressure coefficients?

June 23, 2013, 06:36		#18
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143	I have not looked for this sort of data before for methane and ethane but they are pretty standard engineering gases so should be available. A hunt around and you should find it.

June 23, 2013, 11:50		#19
kiwishall New Member Lee Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 13	Okay! Thauk you for your help in the recent days!