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-   -   How much need we pay for the CFX? (http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/cfx/23034-how-much-need-we-pay-cfx.html)

kiki September 7, 2006 11:54

How much need we pay for the CFX?
 
Hello, everyone. Now I am interested in the software of CFX and want to do some calculation through it. I would like to install one on my computer. I wonder how much I need pay for the license? Thanks in advance.

Robin September 7, 2006 12:39

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?
 
I suggest you contact your local ANSYS sales rep. See http://www.ansys.com/corporate/contact.asp to find a local office.

Regards, Robin

Bak_Flow September 10, 2006 07:38

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
Hi Kiki,

sorry I had to laugh at this one!!! ;-)

Unfortunatly, with the cost of technology in many areas dropping rapidly in price...(look at computer hardware for example)...commercial CFD remains very expensive and I would predict that customers will see further price increases!

All of the current consoldation will probably result in fewer choices and higher prices for users. If you have the time and interest maybe you should check out OpenFoam?

Regards,

Bak_Flow

Bart Prast September 13, 2006 03:58

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
Nonsense. Hardware is a mass product. So it's easier to reduce that in price. CFD software is still a small market. Compared to other engineering software (CAD, FEM, process) it is a really small user base (it just looks big from this site). Comparing the price of CFD software + the actual use (manhours) is way cheaper than the actual testing of prototypes. And without CFD you will need a lot more prototypes. Just stating it is expensive is nonsense. It's a lot of money. If microsoft windows would have the same number of users as say Fluent, it would costs a few orders of magnitude more. Just do not use an expensive CFD package to simulate the flow in your cup of coffee while stirring. It's interesting but economically not very efficient.

Bart

No-Nonsense:Bak_Flow September 13, 2006 11:37

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
Ok Bart,

lets start from scratch:

Nonsense is neither a grammatically correct sentence nor a very polite statement to begin a post with..

But I don't know who you are...maybe you are Bart Patel for all i know....so why get into a fight.

Maybe you missed my point. I think a nice summary would be:

1. Commercial CFD is not cheap 2. Commercial CFD prices (absolute) have always increased...in the 10+ years that I have been following it...I am not sure what they are in relative costs...corrected for all other inflationary costs 3. With the current acquisitions...."I believe" costs will continue to increase

4. I used computer hardware as an example...that may not be the only relevant example although I am tired of people using microsoft as the example.

Ok so now if you still want to move in closer for a bit of a work-over....go ahead... ;-)

Lets take your example of simulating my coffee....of course lets do it with vigorous agitation and do several levels of simulation...maybe even moving up to a fully transient 3-D resolution of all scales of motion

...as we do that we go from maybe a few hundred thousand cells to several millions. When we talk to the CFD company they will sell us more parallel....a true mass product....one of the business administrators cuts a new key...and you take your installation key over to your cluster and install it yourself. Maybe I should have explained my point with this example earlier ;-)

Each additional parallel will cost the same per unit...unless you are one of the huge companies who have negotiated something like unlimited parallel. Me I am not in that category.

Why....it is a sales business....people are highly incentivized....and want lots of money...that makes it expensive.

Do you understand my point now?

Best Regards,

Bak_Flow

Been there. Done that. September 19, 2006 22:53

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
No one is getting rich developing and selling CFD software. Because of the low sales volume Bart mentioned (an order of magnitude at least below the FEA market) the margins are the lowest in the industry. Talk to anyone who's actually in the industry (except maybe a few commissioned sales people working their tails off) and you will discover a group of undervalued, overworked individuals.

It is becuase of these low margins that the big companies are all consolidating, in hopes of cutting development, support, infrastructure, and sales costs. CFD simply requires huge development, support, and sales costs. Would you like a high school grad or a PhD in fluid mechanics on the tech. support line? The costs are going up proportionally to health care and oil costs. Most sales are still require traveling by plane or car for face to face meetings, and most require months of client development through demonstrations and multiple visits.

The only thing that would make it cheaper is three orders of magnitude more sales volume that would support distribution through Best Buy and Office Depot. NOT!

Have you priced FEA or CAD software lately? It's going up as well. How about financial software based in Oracle? You think CFD software is expensive!

Of course for about $200, you can buy a compiler and go write your own code.

Jeff

Bak_Flow September 23, 2006 08:55

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
Hi Jeff,

well you bring up some good points...and I do agree on some...and quite frankly you have made me think about my arguments...which I like someone who may not totally agree with but makes me think deeply about things....funny I used to work for a guy at a company named Jeff who did that....well speaking of which I used to work at another company for a guy named Bart....!!!

So lets just say I know a bit more about the "numbers" than most people!!! ;-)

Yes the cost of travel, expenses, salaries have risen....I will dig out some numbers next time but I might guess that in the last 10 years they have less than doubled...I think something 7% increase per year would lead to doubling in 10 years right...??? Iknow I never got a 7% raise at any of the CFD companies I worked for????? Although the bigger one I worked for did give me much more than the little one...I guess that is why they are bigger ;-)

Ok then flights...hotel, etc...that certainly has not risen at 7% per year....what is inflation???....I know in Canada and the US are less than that...right...

Well then lets look at the cost of CFD and as you point out FEA software is similar....maybe I will dig out some old quotes...but I was taking to a guy a few days ago...and he gave me the impression that the FEA software he was using....from one of the big commercial companies...has gone up something like 4x over the last decade...and I think the CFD code we bought back in the late 90's was less than 10k Can/year...and now is over $30k for comparable seats/features-ie pre-processing-solver-post, bundle!

So my order of magnitude calcualtion is that there is a factor of 2 of gouging....????

What has changed...well again...I have seen some of the inside stuff....10 years ago I bet it was how you discribe a bunch of under-valued hard-working guys...

I have seen managers who do nothing but walk around with papers and call meetings, salespeople who can't even run the code, salespeople who glean off a quarter of a million/year...for making a couple of calls, developers who work hard at changing the background colour of the print-outs when the combustion model which produced the results is off by 200K, dev managers who arbitrary decide to not support old case files because their meeting is running late and they have to get home, chiefs of companies who take home millions in options but can't even remember the quarterly numbers because they are too busy...doing who knows what, etc...

that is where the money goes....

And I think 10 years ago most of these companies were pretty much all dedicated hard-working engineers, scientists, coders, etc.....????

Now the poor schmuck who wants to do some simulations for their everyday engineering job cannot access this technology affordably.....it should have dropped in price and it has not...that is my point!!!!!! And with all of the acquisitions...it is just going to get worse...!!

Ok thanks for the input...over and out!

Best Regards,

Bak_Flow

ali majid October 7, 2006 00:41

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
hi sir i would like to know how much the sallary for ordinary worker work for 12 houre per day


Bart Prast October 9, 2006 03:00

Re: How much need we pay for the CFX?:Too much!
 
Good point(s).

Bart


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