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FLUENT: Reference values, Boundary Conditions, Drag Co-efficient and Downforce

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Old   November 16, 2013, 04:35
Default FLUENT: Reference values, Boundary Conditions, Drag Co-efficient and Downforce
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Hello all,
I have recently undertaken a project in vehicle aerodynamics and I need some guidance. In my project work, I have to do two simulations.
Simulation 1: Keep the car stationary and the give the wind velocity and

Simulation 2: Give the car it's velocity and keep the wind stationary. Then, I have to compare the results.

I have questions regarding reference values, boundary conditions and drag co-efficient.

1) Reference values:
In the 'Area' option, I have given the projected surface area of the car in the X direction, since I want to know the drag. What should I give for the 'Length' option ? The car length ?
Also, for the 'Velocity' option what should I input. I think I should give 0 for Simulation 1 and the car velocity for simulation 2, but I am not sure.

2) Boundary Conditions:
In boundary conditions, there is an option for 'Hydraulic Diameter'. The car, that I am analysing sits in a rectangular 3D wind tunnel. Therefore, I have given the 'Hydraulic Diameter' for Inlet and Outlet as that of a rectangular vent, namely (2*a*b) /(a+b) where 'a' is the width and 'b' is the height. Is this correct.

3) Drag Co-efficient:
I am not sure whether Fluent directly gives the drag co-efficient or not. For every iteration it shows the cd value, but I think it's the cd convergence values and not the absolute cd value. Am I correct ?
Or should I just calculate the cd value from the drag force ?

4) Downforce:
I know that I can get the downforce from the Reports>Forces option. The question is, that in my 'Reference Values', in the 'Area' option, I plan to give the projected car surface area in x direction. Will this lead to a wrong downforce value ? (Since downforce calculation need projected area in the Z direction and not X direction)

Thank You for your help,
Regards,
Harshal
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Old   November 18, 2013, 03:51
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Mohsen
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Hi Harshal,
In simulation 1, you should consider velocity inlet and an outlet condition, and stationary wall for car. In simulation 2, you should consider a moving wall and you don't need any inlet or outlet condition. I don't know anything about calculation of drag in fluent.
Be successful.
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Old   November 19, 2013, 05:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smhosseini View Post
Hi Harshal,
In simulation 1, you should consider velocity inlet and an outlet condition, and stationary wall for car. In simulation 2, you should consider a moving wall and you don't need any inlet or outlet condition. I don't know anything about calculation of drag in fluent.
Be successful.
Hello smhosseini,
thank you for your replies. They have very helpful !

Regards,

Harshal
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Old   November 19, 2013, 12:01
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Reference values are only used to calculate non-dimensional coefficients, such as the coefficient of drag. Their settings will not affect physical values such as force. Regarding 3), check out the Fluent User's Guide, chapter 28.15.3 on force and moment monitors.
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Old   November 21, 2013, 08:56
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Simulation 2 will not work.

Except for the rare case that your car is actually a flat plate...
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Old   November 21, 2013, 10:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuart23 View Post
Simulation 2 will not work.

Except for the rare case that your car is actually a flat plate...
Hi dear Stuart,
Could you tell me why the simulation 2 won't work?
I think he can consider the external wall of the car as moving wall. Isn't it?
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Old   November 21, 2013, 14:21
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Without moving/deforming meshes, a moving wall can only have a tangential velocity component.
The only shape where this makes sense is indeed a flat plate or a rotating cylinder/sphere.
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Old   November 24, 2013, 11:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flotus1 View Post
Without moving/deforming meshes, a moving wall can only have a tangential velocity component.
The only shape where this makes sense is indeed a flat plate or a rotating cylinder/sphere.
Hello, flotus1,
thank you for your reply. Could you please explain what you mean by moving/deforming mesh ? I'm going through the Fluent user handbook. Do you mean moving frames of reference or moving mesh ? Also, in moving mesh there are two types : sliding and dynamic. Can you please explain which option to use ?

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Old   November 24, 2013, 12:49
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None of them.
For an external aerodynamics simulation of a vehicle, the only sensible approach is number 1.
Dont forget to model the floor as a moving wall.
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Old   November 24, 2013, 13:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flotus1 View Post
None of them.
For an external aerodynamics simulation of a vehicle, the only sensible approach is number 1.
Dont forget to model the floor as a moving wall.
Hi, thanks for the reply.
Just out of curiosity, if I give inlet velocity in BOTH the simulations and in the 1st take road as moving wall and in second give velocity to the car, would there be any difference in the results ?

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Old   November 27, 2013, 06:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flotus1 View Post
None of them.
For an external aerodynamics simulation of a vehicle, the only sensible approach is number 1.
Dont forget to model the floor as a moving wall.
Hello flotus1,
I want to ask you about the moving wall condition. I have created a velocity inlet and given the wind velocity. Now I have defined the road as a moving wall and have given the car velocity to it (which is same as the velocity-inlet velocity ). The question is should I select the road (moving wall) as 'relative to adjacent zone' or as 'absolute' velocity ?

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Old   November 27, 2013, 07:26
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Since you have no moving zones, both options should yield the same result.
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Old   November 27, 2013, 07:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flotus1 View Post
Since you have no moving zones, both options should yield the same result.
Ok ! Thanks a lot !

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Old   April 10, 2014, 09:06
Default Doing multiple simulations for different speeds
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Hello all,
I need your help. I have to find out the Cd and Cl values for a car using k-epsilon and k-omega models for multiple speeds (about 15 different speeds). Can some one please tell me how to do that ?

Thanks a lot,

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Old   April 18, 2014, 15:18
Default Which area does Fluent take to calculate lift force on a car
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Hello all,
I wanted to know which area does fluent consider to calculate lift force for a car. From what I found out, the area considered for calculating lift force varies from object to object.

So, can someone please tell me how to find out the area, which Fluent uses for calculating lift force on a vehicle.

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Old   April 19, 2014, 06:20
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The area Fluent uses for calculating coefficients can be found (and changed) in the reference values section.
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Old   April 20, 2014, 04:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flotus1 View Post
The area Fluent uses for calculating coefficients can be found (and changed) in the reference values section.
Hello flotus,
as far as I know, for the Cd value, the area projected in X direction (frontal area) is considered while for Cl, the area projected in Z direction (car viewed from top) is considered. As these two values are different, I wanted to know which area value to put in the Reference Values. I want to have both, the Cd and the Cl.

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Old   April 22, 2014, 05:59
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You could set the area to some specific value (1mē would be quite handy) and multiply the lift and drag coefficients fluent produces by any factor you want.
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Old   May 2, 2014, 05:51
Default problem with flow domain
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I m new to fluent.I am doing analysis in fluent.but my domain seems upside down(inverted)
How can i fix it::;
kindly help me..
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Old   August 1, 2014, 06:23
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Hello all,
I recently completed my project work. This was my first experience with CFD and I thank you all for your help and guidance. Without your support, it would not have been possible for me to complete this project.

Thank You all !

Harshal
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