# How to abtain the correct y plus value.

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 March 3, 2009, 12:04 How to abtain the correct y plus value. #1 sophie Guest   Posts: n/a Hi all, I am currentley doung a cfd project at the university of nottingham. I am trying to get a y+ value < 1 so that the boundary layer can be properly resolved using the SA solver. I have created several fine meshes using the boundary layer function in gambit, however I cannot seem to get a y+ value below 10. Can anyone suggest anything other than adapting the gradient in fluent as this does not seem to work. Thanks sophie

 March 3, 2009, 15:10 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #2 Micael Guest   Posts: n/a y+ is related to mesh size, so your mesh is not enough fine if you got y+ > 10. Otherwise, reducing fluid speed might reduce y+. Be aware that y+ < 1 may require extremely fine mesh. The boundary layer function is a good tool to use. If your surface is planar and fluid flow is parallel to it, then you can try to refine your mesh only in the normal direction to that surface.

 March 4, 2009, 09:50 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #3 sophie Guest   Posts: n/a Can you tell me how to achieve small y+ values(y<3)without reducing the speed? I want to create a realistic model at real flow speeds so that i can validate my model against published NASA data. The meshes that i have created have extremley fine boundary layers, and making them finer any finer has little effect. Is there anyway of getting the y+ values I want without reducing the speed? Thanks, sophie

 March 4, 2009, 12:20 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #4 Micael Boulet Guest   Posts: n/a First of all, did you mean Spalart-Allmaras with "SA"? I never use this model, so I cannot really help. I use k-epsilon. Anyway, I put below a consideration about mesh size and y+. That consideration is true for k-epsilon family model, but I don't know about Spalart-Allmaras. Here is the definition of y+: (density)*(friction velocity)*(wall distance)/(viscosity) Wall distance is the mesh size (in direction normal to boundary). friction velocity is [(shear stress at the wall)/(density)]^0.5 It may look that if you halve the wall distance, y+ does become half of the y+ for the original mesh. This is not necessarily true because friction velocity is solution-dependent and solution is grid-dependent, especially when you are out of the valid range for y+. Is your model 3D? Can you build a similar 2D case with extremely fine mesh to investigate it further?

 March 4, 2009, 13:13 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #5 sophie Guest   Posts: n/a Yes i am working with the Spalart-Allmaras solver. I am using this as it is a relatively simple one-equation model that works well for aerospace applications involving wall bounded flows. However i have run models using k-epsilon aswell but this does not make much difference on the y+ values. I am modelling flow over an unusual shaped aircraft developed by NASA called a lifting body (M2-F2). I am currentley running preliminary models in 2d but hope to move onto 3d soon.My meshes have very thin boundary layers ranging from starting values from 1e-3 to 1e-7, so i dont think i can create even finer meshes than this. amakson and mahdidelfan like this.

 March 4, 2009, 13:48 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #6 Micael Boulet Guest   Posts: n/a I think I understand your difficulty. You are modeling an aircraft and the viscous layer is extremely thin because of high speed. That seem normal that you need an extremely fine mesh to resolve that layer. Can you estimate the viscous layer thickness from litterature? Did you try y+ > 30 (but near to 30)? There are comment about it in the FLUENT 6.3 user's guide (12.11.1 Near-Wall Mesh Guidelines). That is the best I can do, your subject is out of my expertise. I'm mostly working with slow flow, like 1 m/s.

 March 5, 2009, 06:20 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #7 Ralf Schmidt Guest   Posts: n/a Hi! how many rows has your boundary layer? And what is about the grow ratio b/a? I would set the following: number of rows = 25, b/a = 1.05 Hope, that helps.. Ralf

 March 5, 2009, 09:38 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #8 Friend Guest   Posts: n/a Dear In the definition of the y plus given by Micael, it is clear that you will need to reduce the near wall distance by a factor of 1/10 in order to reduce the y plus from 10 to near 1. Otherwise if you have any limitations in constructing a smaller size then you have no more choice than to change the fluid physical properties or to choose a higher operating velocity. Also you have the option of adapting by y plus vale of course after obtaining an initial converged solution. Managing y plus involves an art work.... Good luck

 March 5, 2009, 09:57 Re: How to abtain the correct y plus value. #9 Friend Guest   Posts: n/a y plus estimation tool: http://geolab.larc.nasa.gov/APPS/YPlus/ Source: http://www.cfd-online.com/Links/tools.html#yplus Hope it can help Fedor and ali2 like this.

 April 2, 2009, 09:06 project-airfoil #10 New Member   John Stewart Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 8 Hi, I am having trouble validating a mesh for an airfoil created in gambit. Fluid is air I am having trouble getting the wall shear stress.Is it correct that i complete analysis in fluent and then use the value i get from fluent, in wall fluxes, as tau(wall shear stress) The height of the first cell is 0.00038. not sure of the units Any help would be very much appreciated because I am at a stand still with my project at the moment Thanks, John Last edited by johnstewart00; April 2, 2009 at 13:53. Reason: update

 April 2, 2009, 19:36 #11 Member   Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 35 Rep Power: 8 If you have completed the analysis, you may find the y plus distribution anywhere around the wall directly from the Fluent postprocessing

 August 29, 2010, 01:20 Dear #12 New Member   hassan Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14 Rep Power: 8 I want simulate heat transfer in turbulent air flow with sudden expansion pipe with constant heat flux, i need to calculate surface Nusselt number for down stream...... I want to ask you i get y+37 I tried to change first row no thing happen how can calculate first row and growth factor and no of row to get y+ near 1 ........... Here is the definition of y+: (density)*(friction velocity)*(wall distance)/ (viscosity) How can I know wall distance from equation above? Wall distance is the mesh size (in direction normal to boundary). Friction velocity is [(shear stress at the wall)/ (density)] ^0.5 How can I know shear stress at the wall for turbulent air flow from equation above? My model 3D? Re 5000-90000 and d=0.0254 and D= 0.09525

August 30, 2010, 01:20
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 Originally Posted by hassan79 I want simulate heat transfer in turbulent air flow with sudden expansion pipe with constant heat flux, i need to calculate surface Nusselt number for down stream...... I want to ask you i get y+37 I tried to change first row no thing happen how can calculate first row and growth factor and no of row to get y+ near 1 ........... Here is the definition of y+: (density)*(friction velocity)*(wall distance)/ (viscosity) How can I know wall distance from equation above? Wall distance is the mesh size (in direction normal to boundary). Friction velocity is [(shear stress at the wall)/ (density)] ^0.5 How can I know shear stress at the wall for turbulent air flow from equation above? My model 3D? Re 5000-90000 and d=0.0254 and D= 0.09525
you can decide "wall distance"; "density" and "viscosity" are fluid property. someone had said "shear stress at the wall" was solution-depended and solution is grid-depended. it means that at first you should obtain a convergenced solution and then you can calculate y+ value, finally grid-adaption by y+ value.

 September 5, 2010, 00:04 HI #14 New Member   hassan Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 14 Rep Power: 8 aske about any relation ship between first row and groth factor and now ofv row and depth my case it is expansion pipe i fond formala from gird spacing calculator to find first row ? iam not sure about this formal it is correct or no ? could u help me Re 8112 d= 0.0254 D = 0.09525 fluid = air temprature inlet = 20 constant heat flux = 720 i want to calculate surface nusel no thank u Hassanhayawi@hotmail.com

 September 5, 2010, 06:14 #15 New Member   Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 22 Rep Power: 7 why not write complete sentences?

September 17, 2010, 16:20
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 Originally Posted by Friend ;157166 y plus estimation tool: http://geolab.larc.nasa.gov/APPS/YPlus/ Source: http://www.cfd-online.com/Links/tools.html#yplus Hope it can help
I found this same tool on the web but I don't understand what the Ref. Length is.

Does anybody know it?

Thanks,

Fabio

September 21, 2010, 16:03
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 Originally Posted by FabioT I found this same tool on the web but I don't understand what the Ref. Length is. Does anybody know it? Thanks, Fabio
Check here y+ Value & Aspect Ratio {Wind Tunnel Model} .

the ref. length is the average length of the edge of the considered object.

 September 21, 2010, 23:23 #18 New Member   srr Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 7 Try to have a y+>30 it is also ok for Spalart-Allmaras. y+=1 or y+>30 in Spalart-Allmaras model

 February 11, 2011, 00:33 similar problem.. #19 New Member   Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 9 Rep Power: 8 Hi, i have a linear jet throwing air at high speed at some angle with wall, using enhanced wall treatment, Realizable, k-epsilon model, i have pretty fine mesh but still facing problem with wall yplus >5 near jet region. the flow is 15C and operating temp is 25C. I would appreciate your help.

 April 3, 2011, 20:59 Strange Problem #20 New Member   Hooman Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 6 Dear all, I am modelling flow over an ellipse using k=e model. I have a problem with my yplus magnitude.....my yplus magnitude near my wall is around 500 and it decreases by going far from the wall and reaches to zero in the first node. first i don't know why it doesn't start from zero and then goes to higher magnitudes? second, why i have such a high magnitude of yplus?my speed is 40 m/s and my meshes are really fined. also i defined boundary layer meshes in gambit. Thanks,

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