CFD Online Logo CFD Online URL
www.cfd-online.com
[Sponsors]
Home > Forums > Main CFD Forum

FemLab

Register Blogs Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old   June 14, 2007, 15:36
Default FemLab
  #1
Daniil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hey everyone! Does anybody know wheather it is possible to similate expanding flow through a small hole (nozzle) in comsol multiphysics. Is this software relevant enough?

Thanks alot)
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 14, 2007, 18:28
Default Re: FemLab
  #2
Ahmed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I have used ANSYS multiphysics and what you are describing is a straight forward analysis (There is a tutorial/verification) tutorial.

I used google to search for (comsol femlab) and the results are astonishing.

Any way, if you are familiar (proficient) with the concept of Artificial viscosity, then you ought not get any problem, finite element solvers generally use that concept to stabilize the solution and get convergence. I would appreciate your feedback about that particular programme.

Good luck with your analysis
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 14, 2007, 20:47
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #3
Ahmed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
From Comsol Web Portal:

Improved CFD support

Predefined interfaces for level set functions and two-phase flow using level sets, including special boundary conditions for wetted walls, have been implemented in the MEMS and Chemical Engineering Modules. Furthermore, the Chemical Engineering Module along with the Heat Transfer Module have been extended with the k-ω turbulence model and an accompanying modeling interface.
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 15, 2007, 03:59
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #4
Daniil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hello, Ahmed. Thanks for your relpy.

Unfortunately, I am not a professional at all. I have just started with modeling. But i need to obtain the result as soon as it possible.

I am trying to solve the problem without the viscosity, but FemLab fails to find a solution by statinary analysys, thus i need to use transient solvers. I have no experience in such computations, so i don't have any clue, what type of solver to use. Also i have found that initial conditions are very important, and it would be better to spesify them as close to the exect stationary solution as it possible. But i have rather complex geometry and stream pattern, so i don't know how to assess the solution.

And one more problem, is the following - even when i get a solution for some test values of inlet pressure and density (say 1Pa, 1kg/m3) and the i try to scale these values to my real conditions, the same solver doesn't find anything.

I woud be very happy to get any advise from you!
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 16, 2007, 00:18
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #5
Ahmed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hello Daniil My sincere advice to you is to contact your support engineer, what is not clear to me is why you want to use a transient solver, Does the physics of your problem warrent such a change? I might be able to assist you but you need to fully explain your problem. For your information, transient analysis is just a steady state analysis performed at reasonably small periods of time that is determined by the physics of your problem, as I said before, contact your support engineer and give us your feedback on the programme Wish you good luck
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 17, 2007, 18:35
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #6
Daniil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Dear, Ahmed.

Thank you for your reply. Actually, what i need to simulate is air flow through 200 micrometer i.d. 500 mkm long rectangular nozzle. Pressure drop is from 10000 to 1000 Pa. So, according to my estimations i will have a supersonic jet, and it means that incompressible approx. is absolutely irrelevant. But at the same time viscosity is very important because of rather small Raynolds number ( approx 100). So, unfortunately, i need both incompressible and viscose gas model.

And furthermore i have one more question: in order to make the first step, a have tried to solve my problem using euler compressible mode. But the solver doesn't converge. My geometry is 2D axial symmetry and looks like -

____1____________ ................| ................| ................2 ................| 8...............| _________3______| .| .4 .| .|___5__________ ................| ................| ................6 ................| ................| _____________7__|

I specify inlet density, z velosity and pressure on 7 boarder outflow pressure on 1 slip/symmetry on 2-6 and axial symmetry on 8.

Are there some common mistakes that don't allow to solve euler equations? or may be some hints, that i need to use?

I would be glad to get any piece of advice.

Kindly regrds

Daniil

  Reply With Quote

Old   June 17, 2007, 20:20
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #7
otd
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Air at supersonic speeds is incompressible? Why is this assumption 'irrelevant'?

At the pressures you quote, are you sure the air is not in slip flow or free molecular flow? What is the mean free path?

Depending on the area ratio of your nozzle, a shock wave may form between the throat and the exit plane.

You mention both "rectangular nozzle" and "axisymmetric flow". How do you have both in one nozzle?

Could you describe your flow in more physical terms (independent of the solver)? It sounds as if you have a highly compressible flow.
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 17, 2007, 23:53
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #8
Ahmed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
One quick observation: Have you checked the Knudson Number? in simple words, you cannot have a half million cells in your domain, 10000 or less is good (Cell Knudson Number) Could you upload a picture of your domain on any one of these free web sites Is your flow Isothermal or adiabatic (This sounds more a throtling process than a classical nozzle flow, am I right? Good Luck

  Reply With Quote

Old   June 18, 2007, 17:22
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #9
Daniil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hello, Ahmed,

thank you for your reply.Here is my geometry and results of calculations http://www.spbgu.ru/albums/5579/nozzle.jpg

Now, i am trying to use NonIsothermal Flow coupled with General Heat Transfer mode. Because when i finish with gas dynamics i will add gas heating term inside the hole( actually, i have a microdischarge there)

Now everything goes allright, but in this mode there is no gas cooling due to the expantion. So the process seems to be isothermal ratherthen adiabatic. But, actually, when the heating is switched of it should be almost adiabatic.

Do you know if it is possible to include gas cooling term due to the gas expantion in the thermal balance equation of General Heat Transfer mode?

And also i would like to learn more about artificial diffusion.I have found that in my case adjustment of artificial diffusion parametres and mesh size may affect the solution. But what is the main idea of tuning these parametrs? How to assess them, and what artificial diffusion modes should be used in my case?

I woul sincerely appriciate any help.

Regards, Daniil.

  Reply With Quote

Old   June 18, 2007, 17:45
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #10
Daniil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Dear Otd. THank you for your reply.

Here are parametrs of my problem. The scheme is here - http://www.spbgu.ru/albums/5579/nozzle.jpg the system of equations, that are silved are here - http://www.spbgu.ru/albums/5579/chem_ug_momentum431.png

Inlet pressure 130 Torr, outlet - 16 torr Inflowing gas temperature - 1000K, 2nd camber temperature -300K.

nozzle - 450 mkm in lenth 200 mkm i.d

I guess that this case is not a free molecular flow.

My current problem is to include gas cooling due to the expantion, because my model is coupled to thermal balance eq. And also i need to learn about the concept of artificial diffusion. I would appriciate any advice.

Daniil.

  Reply With Quote

Old   June 18, 2007, 19:26
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #11
otd
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Is the gas going through a hole and then expanding abruptly? Your diagram is not labeled (or the labels are too small to read). Is it a pin hole and then a large chamber? Do you in fact have a nozzle as you said in the first message? I think of a nozzle as a smooth contraction to the throat, then smooth expansion.

I suggested the possibility of free molecular flow because of the extreme pressure difference. Perhaps you can rough out the Knudsen number (as suggested by Ahmed). I wonder if you can't do a rough evaluation of the possibility of a shock wave forming downstream of the throat?

You specify the momentum and continuity equations, but not an energy conservation law. In your reply to Ahmed, it appears an energy conservation law will be included. You'll of course need an equation of state as well.

I recommend again that you develop a clear statement of the problem you need to solve. The code (dissipation or not) can come later.

Many codes (don't know about this one) have a parameter that can be set to introduce artificial (or numerical) dissipation. Eventually, once you have the input set up to describe the phyical flow of interest, you'll be set to change the dissipation parameter and observe the changes in the flows predicted.

Without being very familiar with the code, I probably have nothing else useful to say.

Good luck with your problem.
  Reply With Quote

Old   June 20, 2007, 03:27
Default Re: FemLab (Correction)
  #12
Daniil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Dear otd. Thank you.

In fact I have just a pinhole in a screen and a large chamber after it. I have estimated lamda/R( where R - is a pinhole radius) to be approx 0.1. But i don't know how to estimate wheather my case is free molecular flow using a pressure drop between tho chambers.

In my computations i specify the equation of state by givig density as a function of pressure and temperature. But i need one more equation to get the temperature.

And in my case i am using thermal balance equation with conduction and convection terms. Because apart from gas flow there is also a heating sourse just inside my pin hole. So now my problem is to introduce gas cooling due to it's expantion in this set of equations.

What would you recommend? What form of energy balance equation should i use to get the solution? Woul you please give me some literature reference.

Kindly regards Daniil
  Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Femlab: why isn't this code working? Max Main CFD Forum 2 April 9, 2008 09:35
Do you have information on how to appLY FEMLAB? Dereje Main CFD Forum 0 September 28, 2007 10:17
Femlab 3.2 to Femlab 3.1 Farsad Main CFD Forum 0 August 22, 2007 10:31
fluent and FEMlab philip FLUENT 1 July 1, 2005 08:07
Compressible slip flow in microchannel by FEMLAB? Sander Nagoo Main CFD Forum 2 September 10, 2002 04:39


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:45.