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Old   January 27, 2000, 11:27
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #21
John C. Chien
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(1). The modern politics has always been centered around the men and the fluid dynamics (now CFD). (2). There is no such thing as personal political view point. The politics and economy is global. The cfd/forum is both global economy and politics. There is no pure research here. (3). There is no pure research scientist either. They simply can't exist in todays global economy and politics. (4). By just doing pure research and collecting information,it can easily put one in jail, on either side of the political system. And that was the point of discussions. Just ask the sponsors of the forum, are they doing pure research? They will tell you that their market is global. (5). And the classification of information is dynamic, it changes from place to place, from time to time, just like governing equations of CFD. It's highly non-linear. If you like to be man in CFD, you'd learn the global politics, and before that, learn the global economy. But you don't have to follow my suggestions though.
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Old   January 27, 2000, 22:01
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #22
ckl1998
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I know what you mean. However, in political point of veiw, what you said about communism is quite simple and childish. My opinion is you are bias on communism and even don't have a good understanding on it. You possibly only look at one aspect to make judgement. No one in the world dare to said or admit that they are bright and don't need help. I am not a communist and China citizen, but I respect China. I know and understand her own way to conduct her people, politics and economy. Every step she takes will have her own reason. Top scientists in China educated in America and Europe still need help. In economic point of veiw, if you get something free or low cost,productive and implementable, then use it. Do you understand?
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Old   January 27, 2000, 22:17
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #23
ckl1998
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You may have your own thinking about communism. I am from democratic country. You can't be a politician and can only be a scientist. You may be have a narrow understanding on politics. There are no friend and enemy in politics. We live by depending on each other. Capitalism, socialism and communism will have impacts on each other, each of them has their own weakness. From what you said, you only consider short term benefits or "localized aspect". Don't you think about long term benefit or "globalized aspect"?
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Old   January 27, 2000, 22:30
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #24
ckl1998
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Why John C.Chein always think and bias abot "chinese researchers". Are they do any thing wrong? They will have their own way to search information. Just like you, you have your own intuition,thinking and "motive"
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Old   January 27, 2000, 22:38
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #25
ckl1998
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Zhou Hwa, you are right. I hope one day in the future John C.Chien will awake from his imagination and be able to have a clear and good knowledge on the "communism and capitalism". In education and religion, they is actually no cold war between "c & c". We have to work together.
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Old   January 27, 2000, 22:56
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #26
ckl1998
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Once again, you only consider the narrow aspect. I think you must have some personal problem on this matter. I don't think you understand the country you stay now. Even though the country you stay will have the same intuition and thinking like you, she won't do it like this way. She will do it on a wise, non emotional and good political way. What you said don't represent her.
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Old   January 27, 2000, 23:03
Default Re: Thank you very much for the information.
  #27
ckl1998
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John, are you live in Utopia. In real world, there are lot of "uncertainty principles". No theory or modelling that can describe the world. You mathematical model on this would give unreasonable results. Every one will have their ways to solve problems. May be in future, your model will no longer apllied or valid.
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Old   January 27, 2000, 23:12
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #28
Zhong Lei
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John, although I have ever argued in favor of your posts, i really think that you are too noisy this time. I do not care about your past posts and can tolerate your noise, but i can not tolerate that you are cooking up stories and spread them around.

Dr. H.S. Tsien is respected not only for his contribution to Chinese aeronautics and astronautics but also for his contribution to aerodynamics. He has never been arrested. In fact, he has been in a hospital for a few years for his high age (90-year-old) before Hua Lun Kung appeared.


John asked: Can a CFD scientist in a communist state talk about politics ? Answer: Yes, of couse we can do it now. I just come back from China in the last week. I found that it is common that people talk about politics in their home, office, street and even in mass communication although it is not as free as some country. It impressed me deeply.


John asked: Is there a possibility in the future that a Chinese scientist using a foreign capitalist CFD code will be put in jail for some political reasons? Answer: It is impossible. Chinese goverment has clearly recognized its mistakes happend 30 years ago and has opened their market as well as their politics gradually. 30 years ago, at that time, the world was in a turbulent status and many countries, such as China, U.S., Post-Soviet, Europe, Japan and so on, were involved, and various situations also happened in other countries. Your brain seems still remain in that time. Unlike you imaged, current Chinese goverment encourages international academic cooperation and exchange in all fields of science and technolegy. Every year, many foreign professors visit China, and some of them are come from Taiwan. I know some of them, but I have never heard anything as you cooked up. Many foreign capitalist CFD codes are being used in China. You may visit their homepages, for example, Fluent, Star-CD. Or, you may ask Bill Gates whether he has been arrested for he sales his capitalist Windows in China when he visits China.

One should learn and do not forget the history, and one should also look forward to the future. The world is progressing, and China is developing.

This forum is used for academic discussion rather than talking about politics. So I suggest you that, if you are interested in politics, please go to the related forum or contact with people personally.

I also visit Zhou's homepage, I have not found anything you mentioned here. It is just for academic purpose.

Zhong
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Old   January 27, 2000, 23:13
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #29
ckl1998
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John, it seems that you are actually don't understand what is "global economy and politics". Your issues are limited. Your model is only apllied to limited cases. As you said, "there is highly non-linear", but why you still fixed yourself under your unadaptive model. May be in the future you can't survive if you don't change or improve your model.
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Old   January 27, 2000, 23:17
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #30
ckl1998
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Zhou Hua, go ahead. I support you.
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Old   January 28, 2000, 00:31
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #31
John C. Chien
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(1). To my knowledge, Dr. H.S. Tsien, a student of Von Karman at CalTech was involved in rocket technology. (2). He was found heading for China with sensitive information, and was detained at CalTech for several years. (3). He was later deported from US. When he went back to China, he applied his knowledge to the development of Chinese missiles which carry nuclear warheads. (4). These are well-known fact and well reported in news. Did he just go back to China to teach aerodynamics in the graduate school? (5). That same missile technology was used in 1996 throughout Taiwan's presidential election. Various missiles were fired from China into Northern part, Southern part, and Western part of Taiwan in the ocean. (6). I believe, President Clinton dispatched two aircraft carriers into that region under the request of Taiwan's President Lee, for fear of being taken over by the Chinese communists. (7). Since then, it is reported that some kind of missile defense system is being studied by US government to safe guard the safety and stability in that area. (8). Recently, Chinese also have developed their own Window operting system based on the Free Linux operating system. It was reported that it will be used by the Chinese government, thus eliminating the current MS Windows. (or Windows2000). Although, this report was denied by the Chinese, I think, the Chinese Internet is still under the control of the government. (9). Dr. Wen-Ho Lee case has been reported widely in news media. He is currently in jail, with only one hour a week to see his family. This case has been investigated extensively for several years now. I don't read newspaper often, so, if you are interested in the case, you can do the Internet search on your own. (10). A Chinese visiting scholar, with US advanced degrees, doing research at University of Pennsylvania, was put in Chinese jail because he went back to China to collect old newspaper information for the Chinese culture revolution period, which occured from 1966 through 1976 in China. So far, it is reported that the graduate school of University of Pennsylvania, is still trying to ask the Chinese authority to release this visting Chinese scholar at U of Penn. These are reported in the news media in US for a while. I don't know whether the news media is tell the truth or not. (11). I must say that I am not a reporter, so, I could be wrong when reading the newspaper. You also should not take my words for it, and you have to validate it first. (12). By the way, I think, as long as the issue is related to the readers in CFD, it can be discussed here. This is because without the reader, the discussion on the codes simply do not produce the CFD solutions automatically by the codes. (13). In terms of qualification on China, I have to say that I have never been to China before. But, that does not mean that I don't know anything about China. (as a matter of fact, a large number of Chinese students studied in US, stay in US. So, it seems to me that they don't like the system in China. I could be very wrong in this, because they probably still like very much the Chinese system, but, they also like to live in the US free society.) (14). You said "many foreign Capitalist CFD codes are being used in China", Does it include the codes developed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory? If you are sure that they have never used the LANL codes, why not help Dr. Wen-Ho Lee so that he can be released from the jail? I think he is a mechanical engineer, with CFD expertie in weapon design and simulation. We can't talk about the change in China while letting our CFD colleague in the jail, right?
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Old   January 28, 2000, 00:57
Default Re: Thank you very much for the information.
  #32
John C. Chien
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(1). You are right. (2). That's exactly how Dr. Lee and Dr. Yang received their Nobel Prizes in Physics many years ago. (3). It is likely that my model is alway wrong. The free environment is essential to bring out the real truth.
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Old   January 28, 2000, 01:14
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #33
John C. Chien
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(1). I must say that you are right. (2). ONly the FREE forum and the FREE society can promote such change and realize such change. (3). When we die, it simply because our body can no longer change. It can no longer produce new cells. (4). So, for the cfd-forum to stay healthy, your way of thinking is important. If no one can create new ideas for cfd-forum, it will die just like a old man dies.
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Old   January 28, 2000, 01:25
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #34
John C. Chien
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(1). I think, we always try to present the case or point of view in a more stronger statement. This will help the readers to understand the issue clearly. (2). But when we present the view point, we rarely say that this is absolutely right, and the rest of it are wrong. (3). Its purpose is to promote the thinking at a different angles. And the conclusion is up to the reader himself, just like reading a novel. (4). Whether it is strong or whether it is narrow, it is always trying to provoke different point of view. And I don't write the story first and try to edit it and then present it here, to please everybody.
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Old   January 28, 2000, 01:31
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #35
John C. Chien
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(1). Yes, I am sure that Chinese researchers are quite healthy and independent.
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Old   January 28, 2000, 02:03
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #36
Zhong Lei
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(1) At first, you had better read some aerodynamics textbook concerning basic theory of transonic, supersonic and hypersonic. (2) Evenif Dr. H.S. Tsien had not led the Chinese aeronautics, some other people would have done it. (3) Almost every country have been being developing theirown defense systems including missiles to safeguard territory and prevent from disrupting. (4) Many companies in the world are being developing their own computer systems in order to replace MS Windows and occupy the market. It is not surpprised and censurable at all if this is also being done in China. (5) Every country has law to pretect their secret which have not opened. Wherever you are, in China or other country, if you violate the law, certainly you will be punished. (6) The fact is that many softwares producted by US national laboratory are limited strictly to be used only in US. If commercial softwares are released in China, Chinese will certainly have right to buy and use them. (7) I have been also in foreign countries for many years. Maybe, many chinese students do not like, or more correctly to say, are not satisfactory to the current chinese system, but they are watching the development of China and waiting for chance to return.

If you can not distingush between truth and falsehood, please keep in silence. Don't spread it around with your bias.
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Old   January 28, 2000, 02:53
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #37
John C. Chien
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(1). I think, you agree that there are some kind of laws there, which can put people in jail. And that was the only original issue in the free software discussion. (2).Unfortunately, Internet is the place where biased opinion is routinely presented. (3). That's not the real problem. The real problem is the export of nuclear weapons or missiles to unstable countries or groups. (4). Based on your item-(7), can we interpret the " but they are watching the development of China" as being concerned about the stability in China?
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Old   January 28, 2000, 04:39
Default Thank you!
  #38
Zhou Hua
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I will continue to make my website more useful and academic, at present time, it will be a website majored on instructions to fluid mechanics, after this step, some special coloumns like CFD will be added to it. Any way it's growing, thank you for your support!
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Old   January 28, 2000, 07:23
Default Re: Thank you very much for the information.
  #39
ckl1998
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"The free environment is essential to bring out the real truth"

John, don't be too stubborn. It is not necessary that truth will always come from "free environment".
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Old   January 28, 2000, 07:31
Default Re: Free CFD Software wanted
  #40
ckl1998
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What you say is right. However, if you "review" your past in the "free CFD software wanted", there are a lot of "controversy" and "confusion".
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