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Old   September 6, 2001, 08:14
Default I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #1
Dean Schrage
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... well not always but most of the time.

I am finding this forum to be a closed community comparable to high level journals. There appear to be a few elders who cast questionable words of wisdom to the musings of us idiotic CFD neophytes. When I answer someone's post, which admittedly hasn't been too often, I really try to give out some information, to take part in their problem and share my experience to make a collective push forward.

True, I am not listed in the Gurus section (e.g. see http://www.cfd-online.com/Resources/misc.html#gurus) but I'm no dork either. And while I have had some positive interactions in this forum, and several individuals have really helped me work out some problems, for the most part, all I get is confusing, poorly posed responses, some which are just plain gibberish.

It is apparent that I'm just going to have to keep hammering out the mental pushups to learn this material on my own. And on my own I will proceed, most assuredly

To the webmaster, Jonas: I am sorry to take up space with this post but I'm really passionate about CFD, the mathematics, the codes, the science of the subject, the simulation aspect, the rich history. I think the content of the forum should reflect this. Perhaps you disagree. I apologize for any slop this creates. I promise I will remove myself from future posts.

Signing off permanently

Best Regards

Dean Schrage Ph.D. Thermal Fluid Physics
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Old   September 6, 2001, 08:38
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #2
Andrew Parker
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Dear all

I am a student, in fact still undergraduate, and I can see where you are coming from, but I would have phrased it differently. It seems to me that this forum could be like a virtual school/university and I mean that most sincerely as I am probably one of the only people in this forum, who is in that environment at present. There are some very intelligent people out there and who take part in this forum, and I do believe they give an added advantage. At the moment I am not in the position to comment as all I do is take advise I cannot give any-you on the other hand obviously just by your pure passion, never mind your academic ability, can, and it is a shame you are going to do mental gymnastics somewhere else. I would have two comments to the Webmaster, firstly this is a very good site, but I think it could be organized differently-and I think it would really work. My thought are that instead of a main forum and a Fluent forum, or maybe as well as, there should be forums that collect people in one group, i.e. people doing mixing chemical problems, airfoil theory, automotive design, turbomachinery, research, turbulence, this list goes one I think you get the idea. I think part of the problem that Dean has highlighted is that there are too many people trying to answer the same problems-and it cause an over load of information-which is reflected as gibberish. I really do think that if one set of people where all talking about airfoils (hydrofoils) for example, then the problems they where having would be much easier and quicker to resolve and communicate-we could then have the main forum as a kind of interdisciplinary forum for all the sub specialist subjects. Lastly I too am not named in the gurus list, but I do not believe it is personal; if we did not have some laughs with this stuff I think we would all go mental.

Just my thoughts

Andy
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Old   September 6, 2001, 09:31
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #3
Jonas Larsson
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Several years ago, before these forums were started, I tried this here at CFD Online - I started a "Turbulence Modeling Forum", a "Finite Element Methods Forum" a "Combustion Forum" ... and so on. This was all a big failuire - each forum got a burst of posts when they were first started but then quickly died out.

The key to get this kind of forums up to speed is to have a critical mass of visitors. If we start subdividing CFD into many smaller topics we run the risk that all small forums die.

But perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps it is time for a reintroduction of more topic-oriented forums. Any opinions on this from others? We could give it a try. The division can be made in several ways - we could open "application area" forums like a "turbomachinery forum" an "automotive forum" etc. or we could open "CFD sub-topic" oriented forums like a "turbulence modeling forum" a "combustion forum" etc. What would you prefer? Both perhaps? Any suggestions on a first "topic" we could try?
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Old   September 6, 2001, 09:51
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #4
Andrew Parker
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Dear Jonas/all

I would love it if we could try an airfoil theory forum first, but that just me. It is great to see that I did not offend you with any of my comments. My personal view is that we should have application forums instead of sub-topic forums for one simple reason. If I want to get help with my problem airfoil/hydrofoil-then if it where a sub-topic forum, I would have to go to the meshing forum, the turbulence forum, the transition forum, the x forum, y forum, z forum, and so on. If it were application based then all of the above and much more by default would be discussed in that forum, and more importantly it would be turbulence related to airfoils, not airfoils, combustor, pipes, and so.

Cheers again, and again, just my thoughts

And lets have much more views; this is very important-and thanks to Dean for kind of starting it off!

Andy
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Old   September 6, 2001, 10:02
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #5
Critical
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I stay in the general forum and keep out of the others because I don't use commercial codes. However, that doesn't mean I could not help with some of the questions. I like general because its gives me a chance to span over wide areas and get opinions from people in different areas. I believe that people subdivide things by the "Subject".

I don't know whether this is possible but I see alot of repeat questions. Maybe one could make a frequently asked questions section and subdivide that.

Actually, I would hate to try and subdivide things. Everything is connected somehow.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 10:16
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #6
S.P.Asok
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Dear Mr.Jonas, I think people are going to reply according to their immediate needs and current opinions which can however change from time to time.In my opinion sub divisions can be based on the three fundamental methods of CFD itself viz.FVM,FDM and FEM.People like me may have their first love for your "Finite element methods forum".I have no clus to why it had not been a success earlier.However I do still believe that the present system of the forum is the best.

I am sure that a number of visitors to here would have been very much pained at the comments of Dr.Dean SchRAGE.The sincerity with which this forum - very much endeared to visitors around the world, is serving is so immaculate.In our place elders used to say that only a tree bearing sweet fruits will receive a beating from others by way of stones thrown on it to get its fruit and that is really a compliment to the tree and never an insult.I wish the organisers of this noble forum to take up bouquets as well as brickbats with prudent humility and forbearence respectively.

With lot of wishes to the continued great services of this forum, asok ps I wonder how Mr.John C.Chien is able to turn out very lengthy explanations so often.Many of us do not know who is he, who is Mr.Jonas Larsson and so on.Some kind of a home page where we find their affiliations can be put up right at the entry spot.It seems these gentlemen are always at their terminals almost round the clock.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 10:22
Default Re: I read a gibberish post about babbling
  #7
Bubba
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My first response is that you put a link in your original thread and all I get is gibberish. I get sent to yahoo.com (or some server default page). You were not off to a good start.

I see from your thread that a few people were in fact trying to help you. To you their response may be gibberish but that is only because you most likely didn't understand what they were talking about. I know one of the posts I had to scratch my head for a while.

But the response to this should be to ask for the user to explain him or herself. Reply by asking him 10 questions. This is where the disscussion begins! Not from your original post. That only gathers people.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 10:37
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #8
John C.Chien(Alter Ego)
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People staying unknown means that one can get into lengthy arguements and not worry about people who take things to seriously. I hope J.C.Chien never gives his or her real name.

I do wish however people would control their using of colorful adjectives. Maybe instead of the subdivision comment we could work on a adjective filter of some sort. This will allow users to decode the babble.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 10:38
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #9
Andrew Parker
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Dear S.P. Asok/all

I one hundred and ten percent do NOT think you should set up the forum as to which Discretization scheme is used in your solver, this bares little use to the physics that is going on, and if you put yourself in the shoes of a new user, it would be hard for them to know where to look or start, as I think you will find that this form of algebraic representation is almost completely reserved for CFD, and therefore again as a new user they would have an uphill battle from the start, that's unless you would like to turn the forum into a place for only people who do Discretization in their sleep.

I hope Jonas agrees with me, this sites fate is in his hands.

Andy
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Old   September 6, 2001, 10:44
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #10
Jonas Larsson
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I agree with you - responses will mirrors peoples needs right now - people who need help with, for example turbulence modeling, will of course want a turbulence modeling forum now.

You asked about me - I am the maintainer of <A HREF="http://www.cfd-online.com">www.cfd-online.com</A>. You can find my homepage here.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 11:02
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #11
sylvain
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I'm very sorry about your feeling, but I - as everybody here I think - do my best to answer to the post when I think that I am qualify to and I try to ask relevant questions.

The fact is that some people here are not english nor american people, so they (we) try to write in a foreign language about very specific subject. This is not so easy and if sometimes the answer seems to mean :

"I know more but I won't tell it."

it means in fact :

"I know more, but be more precise in what you are asking for because it's not so easy for me to write in english, so I answer shortly."

Regards,

Sylvain - Engineer - Ph.D Turbulence Modeling
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Old   September 6, 2001, 12:41
Default ok, just one more post, theeen I'm done
  #12
Dean Schrage
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As I said I don't post often, primarily because my area of expertise in CFD is thin, but when I do, I try to really help and I am certain of what I say. Moreover, I am courteous when I reply and try to help. More and more frequently I am seeing snotty little posts by people, e.g. go somewhere else, or see a FAQ, or not-in-my-message-forum, or do your own homework. You all know who you are because my comment of the elders speaks to you. You want an open university, then encourage the learning process. And shed the fruit early to eat rather than have it rot on the tree.

Ok ok - I will agree with gent below; my comments did not compensate language barriers but I have communicated with someone from France on a PPE problem (I think it was France) and despite the differences in writing style, it was the content and depth, repetition of the explanations made the difference between achieving a meaningful technical exchange and pointless prattle. I think you get the point. This forum is a buzz with noise. Why waste the space.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 14:26
Default You are right..
  #13
Patrick Godon
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You have put the finger on a very imortant point, unfortunately this is what the internet is subject to. Therefore, there is not much we can do, but just ignore the messages of those who are just writing 'bla-bla-bla' without giving any help (see e.g. the Frenchman 'Chien'). It is because of that, that I visit this site much less than before.

A solution would be just to remove these messages, this would require monitoring them. It would help to save the space and remove the buzz.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 14:34
Default Re: ok, just one more post, theeen I'm done
  #14
John C. Chien
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(1). I like your posted message. But when I try to visit the website listed in your message, I got the Yahoo site, saying this page is not available. (2). My question is: Why did you list it there, when it is not available to the readers? (3). I think, it is an honour to get the question answered, because you are getting it for free. The forum is just like a big flea market, except that everything is free. (4). I visited a local public library yesterday, and I got a free copy of a novel "great true spy stories". It has a stamp of "FREE ,... library" on it. (5). I read the first spy story last night. It was about how a painter in the occupied France tried to steal the secret map used to build up the French coastline in an anticipation of the Allied force invasion. (6). Like the free spy story from the library, like the flea market where you can still get something for less than a dollar, the persons answering your question are giving away very expensive time for free.....NOT JUST TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, BUT IN MOST CASES ARE TRYING TO USE THE QUESTION TO ANSWER BROADER QUESTIONS WHICH WERE NOT PRESENTED BY THE READERS.... (7). Anyway, the forum is a vehicle to promote thinking in CFD, and I think, we have accomplished it. (8). If a company like Digital was disapperaing, and now Compaq is disapperaing, then HP could be disappearing. The only reason I am answering questions around the clock is "trying to keep the forum alive", that's all. (9). You must remember one thing which I mention from time to time, that is, once the message is posted in forum, it becomes "public". That means you don't own it anymore. And the only way you can do is to act like a spy trying to steal a map, a map to your answer. Or like a visitor to a flea market, looking for treasure in piles of less than one dollar junks. (10). If you are willing to pay, say $50.00US an hour to read this forum, then there is a chance to change the format or contents in certain ways. Complaining about the quality of products in a flea market? You must be living in a government provided mansion all the time. (11). Anyway, I like your question about laminar/transitional/turbulent flows. But I still like to visit your website. It is still not working.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 14:47
Default Re: You are right..
  #15
John C. Chien
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(1). A person visiting a flea market, complaining about the quality of the goods for sale at one dollar a piece. (2). Why not setup a new cfd forum at your university, using the government fund? In that way, you can operate the forum like a NASA Mars project. (3). Anyway, you are supposed to ignore my comments, because my answer to the question is not directed toward the person who asked the question, but rather to the readers who would be interested in the question and answer. (4). It is very hard to buy the answer from a superman, because the personal answer is just too expensive. So, the person who ask the question must have the mind of a spy. In this way, he can steal the answer from others for free. (5). It is perhaps the time for you to sell high quality goods at a flea market like this, so that I can have more time to read my free spy stories (those were compiled by former CIA director...Allen Dulles, so I am not reading junks from the library.)
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Old   September 6, 2001, 15:01
Default Re: You are right..
  #16
Jonas Larsson
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Deleting irrelevant posts is very very tough - there is no good way to decide what is interesting and what is rubbish. What is interesting for one person might well be just rubbish for another. No matter how you do this you will also end up offending a lot of people, and this in turn will create even more trouble. I'm convinced that for this type of forum a very liberal non-censoring attitude is best in the long run.

However, I certainly miss your expert comments Patrick and if you think that I can do anything to improve the cituation please let me know.

I used to get irritated by some posters, but now I just ignore the ones I find irritating - no use trying to reason with the wrong people, better to choose who to communicate with so to say.

Would you, or anyone else, be interested in moderating a dedicated "high level" or "research" forum? I could easily open that if someone is willing to moderate it (means reading a approving/rejecting all posts).
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Old   September 6, 2001, 15:30
Default Re: You are right..
  #17
Patrick Godon
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Monitoring the messages could take a long time, I agree. But basically there seems to be two kinds of answers: the ones that are trying to answer the question directly, and the ones that direct the person to some references where the answer might be found. All other answers (phylosophical, pathological, methodological or even theological, etc...) are innapropriate and should not even be posted, unless the question itself is not clear and/or wrong. Also, it happens often that some people (very junior) have very simple and basic questions (unlike the present case), and it is unfair just to ignore them and/or to criticize them. If someone doesn't like it, then it is better not to post any answer.

I think it is a good idea to have a forum on (say) 'theory' (Fluid Dynamics) or 'research' in general, at a higher level, disconnected from the general forum. I could help with that, but only on very specific subjects. And for sure, you would need help from many more.
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Old   September 6, 2001, 15:44
Default Re: You are right..
  #18
Jonas Larsson
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I'm not primarily concerned by the amount of work, but by the selection criterias to use in deleting/censoring posts. Moderation, that is reading and approving/rejecting messages before they are posted publicly, is a better approach I think.

Perhaps a good way to open a "moderated" forum is if we could gather a bunch of volunteer moderators and share the work.

What do others think? Would a moderated "high-level" forum be used? Want me to open one here at cfd-online.com? Any volunteer moderators?

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Old   September 6, 2001, 15:50
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #19
John C. Chien
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(1)." Money " is always the key issue in defining the quality of products or services. (2). If the person asking a question is willing to pay certain amount of money for the service of quality(defined by the person) answers, then I guess, the person who provided answer would be happy to follow the instructions and get paid accordingly. (3). This is a very funny world, where people would rather spend a lot of time fooling around with commercial codes and paying a lot of license fee, then come back to the forum looking for high quality free answers. (4). Forum is not a school, it can at most provide the direction. It seems to me that no direction is the best direction, because for a person to take certain new directions (provided in the answer), it will increase the blood pressure. (5). The total number of readers visiting this message is now 148. That is roughly 50% of the total active readers world wide. But how many are answering the question?
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Old   September 6, 2001, 16:10
Default Re: I post a question and all I get is gibberish
  #20
John C. Chien
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(1). It is a very creative thinking. I think, we need to use a programming language, say Fortran, C, C++, Basic or Java. (2). After all, if one can not translate the answer into a computer program, then the answer is almost useless. (3). With this, we have wrold-wide standard language, no more no less. (4). Are you ready to present your questions and answers in computer languages? (5). For example, if ( n > max_iteration and residuals > 10^-2) then ... would be a good question for convergence problem.
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