CFD Online Logo CFD Online URL
www.cfd-online.com
[Sponsors]
Home > Forums > General Forums > Main CFD Forum

Please: Looking for a Panel method or vortice lattice for windmill

Register Blogs Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old   March 31, 2009, 07:03
Post Please: Looking for a Panel method or vortice lattice for windmill
  #1
Senior Member
 
M. Montero
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madrid
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 16
be_inspired is on a distinguished road
Hi all,

I am doing some studies about windmills and in the current situation, i am looking for a panel method or a vortex lattice method to realize a parametric study of different designs of blades, so rans calculations are not affordable in this stage.
The best option would be a 3d panel method, but i am not be able to find any program.

I have founded several programs for aircrafts, but in my situation a need that the geometry is rotating with a constant velocity.

I don't mind if it is neccesary to pay something, but it would be better if it is free or i can try it firstly.

Thank you for your help
be_inspired is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   March 31, 2009, 11:15
Default
  #2
Senior Member
 
sbaffini's Avatar
 
Paolo Lampitella
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Italy
Posts: 2,149
Blog Entries: 29
Rep Power: 39
sbaffini will become famous soon enoughsbaffini will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Skype™ to sbaffini
If you are a U.S. citizen there are a lot of codes made available for free by the DOE or the NASA.

Another option is http://www.pdas.com/ and you'll take a lot of codes for 300$, but i don't know if PANAIR is suitable for this (it should). Obviously there is no support for nothing as it was for free, but i don't think it's a problem.

Also, a lot of papers from http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp are available for some of the codes (for free, of course), included PANAIR, so, even if you can't try the codes, you can surely check their capability via the referenced papers.
sbaffini is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   March 31, 2009, 11:24
Default Is this what you are looking for?
  #3
Senior Member
 
gocarts's Avatar
 
Richard Smith
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Enfield, NH, USA
Posts: 138
Blog Entries: 4
Rep Power: 17
gocarts is on a distinguished road
Here at Symscape we have a 3D Panel Method as part of our SymLab add-ons. It can simulate rigid body motion (including rotation) and you can also specify an angular velocity free stream condition - which for your case is probably easier.

The attached image is for a simple 3 blade turbine with both linear and angular velocity free stream conditions. This example is available as a free download for SymLab.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rotating-blades.jpg (75.0 KB, 43 views)
__________________
Symscape, Computational Fluid Dynamics for all
gocarts is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   March 31, 2009, 13:06
Default
  #4
Senior Member
 
M. Montero
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madrid
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 16
be_inspired is on a distinguished road
It is a pity but I am not a U.S. citizen. I had seen PMARC and other very interesting codes, but i can not get it.

Thanks for the answers. I am going to try to contact with somebody of pdas to tell me if PANAIR is suitable for my particular case.

In the case of Symscape, i am going to use one geometry to validate it.

If anybody knows about other codes and can help me, I am very interested.

Thank you
be_inspired is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   March 31, 2009, 17:32
Default
  #5
Member
 
Anton Lyaskin
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Samara, Russia
Posts: 66
Rep Power: 17
A_Lyaskin is on a distinguished road
Check also QPROP:
http://web.mit.edu/drela/Public/web/qprop/
A_Lyaskin is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   April 1, 2009, 04:51
Default
  #6
Senior Member
 
M. Montero
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madrid
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 16
be_inspired is on a distinguished road
I have checked Qprop and it seems to be like a BEM code ( blade element momentum). I need to work with the geometry taking into account the 3d geometry and the 3d effects.
be_inspired is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   April 1, 2009, 06:01
Default
  #7
Senior Member
 
M. Montero
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madrid
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 16
be_inspired is on a distinguished road
Gocarts, I have a question concern to the mesh definition along the span. How can I improve the definition of the mesh ( Where is the mesh?) along the span ( mainly near tip and root) and along the chord?

I need to do some 3d modifications around the tip zone and the accuracy in this zone is important.


Maybe the software can be useful for me, but I need test it with other codes and tunnel results.
be_inspired is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   April 1, 2009, 10:39
Default SymLab Panel Flow
  #8
Senior Member
 
gocarts's Avatar
 
Richard Smith
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Enfield, NH, USA
Posts: 138
Blog Entries: 4
Rep Power: 17
gocarts is on a distinguished road
To control the mesh density, you use the Accuracy Tool in the Physics Tool Palette. If the grading you specify doesn't allow mapped meshes then we automatically switch to triangles. You apply the Accuracy tool directly to geometry edges/faces or volumes. If you haven't already I suggest you review the tutorial "Flow Over an Airfoil."

If you don't have connected geometry (part of your model) in the vicinity of the area you want to resolve, then place a separate edge (source) there and attach the Accuracy tool to it and target the face of your model you want it to influence. So drag the Accuracy tool over to the face of the model and select the Set Target menu item, then pick the source and select the Done menu item. For a detailed explanation of the Accuracy tool try "Accuracy Tool."

The mesh is automatically generated on demand - that is to say when you request values (e.g., pressure coefficient). To view the mesh once values are present select all faces, then in the Properties Panel change the Style property to Flat, and keep the Transparent property unchecked. Try reviewing our tip "View a Mesh."

You are likely already aware of the limitations of panel methods, but remember a panel method assumes incompressible invisicid flow, so it is unlikely to predict viscous tip effects. Accurately representing the geometry of the tip is likely just to slow the simulation without a comparable increase in solution accuracy.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
To create/modify simulations you will be best served by activating the SymLab Professional Add-0n. Without this you can only view a simulation for free in SymLab.
__________________
Symscape, Computational Fluid Dynamics for all

Last edited by gocarts; April 1, 2009 at 10:51. Reason: Clarify requirements
gocarts is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   April 1, 2009, 15:52
Default
  #9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 62
Rep Power: 17
RenardP is on a distinguished road
It will be nice to have a comunity driven 3D panel code coupled with a boundary layer code and transition capabilities (for pure CFD we already have OpenFoam).

I suppose an Open Source development model for this program will work.

What do you think ?

Paul
RenardP is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   April 1, 2009, 16:15
Default
  #10
Senior Member
 
M. Montero
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madrid
Posts: 153
Rep Power: 16
be_inspired is on a distinguished road
I think it would be a great idea with a lot of people and institutions interested in this program ( to use it, I do not know how start it ). I think a pure CFD is not suitable when you are
in the design stage.
I have some experience with commercial cfd codes and panel codes ( currently I am trying to start with openfoam but it is a bit difficult )

Do you have any idea ?
be_inspired is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   April 1, 2009, 17:53
Default
  #11
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 62
Rep Power: 17
RenardP is on a distinguished road
Well,

first you need a program specification, these probably can be done here on cfd-online.

1. You will need to write down in a clear an concise form the theory that will support the program. These can also be the work of the comunity.
2. Chose carefully your programming language, for a panel code even an interpreted language will work well. Never use a comercial language (this will drastically limit your coders base even if it looks easy to develop in such a language e.g. Matlab, Mathematica).For a compiled language I would suggest C++, for an interpreted one Python or Ruby.
3. Separate the graphical part from the solver part of your code, this can be easily done by using in the begining a simple solution: write your data to a text file and generate a simple Gnuplot script that will show/save this data in various formats.
4. The solver can also be separated from the surface grid generation part.
5. Create a large base of analytical tests for validating the code. Every capabilities of the code must be validated ( later these examples can be compiled into a nice tutorial).
6. Above all try to find a lot of people that will work on this. Do not use a single genial coder that can live you and your comunity for a well paid job. Always use for coding at least 2-4 people that will manage the main code.
7. Using a scripting language will permit to the average user to easily extend the code. These can be later incorporated in the main code.
8. All the outputs must be done in simple text files or in a clear xml format. Never use binary - you must be able to see/check in a normal text editor the output of your code.
9. Always test the code on Linux (any POSIX system will do like FreeBDS, Mac OS X ...) and Windows (you need a large users base).
RenardP is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Tags
windmill panel method

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Open Source Code for Lattice Boltzmann Method Halim Main CFD Forum 34 November 14, 2019 02:27
3D PANEL METHOD Paolo Lampitella Main CFD Forum 12 August 27, 2014 12:46
Induced drag in panel method andre Main CFD Forum 1 March 8, 2008 11:58
Panel method problem niavarani Main CFD Forum 1 June 17, 2003 11:01
panel method Waleed Mohamed Main CFD Forum 2 March 30, 1999 22:26


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:54.