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forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449 6.41497 -2.43225e-

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Old   May 25, 2013, 03:10
Default forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449 6.41497 -2.43225e-
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s.m
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saeideh mohamadi
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hi Dear all;
i am working on multi element airfoils.
my Question is: how should we calculate the forcecoefficient "Drag,Lift & Moment coefficient" from
" forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449 6.41497 -2.43225e-19))
moment(pressure, viscous)((-8.28657e-22 1.45304e-19 8222.87) (5.57025e-20 3.72086e-20 0.0120865))
"
that is gained from force function that is written in the controlDict after finishing analysis ?

Thank you very much for any one could give me a little guideline
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Old   June 2, 2013, 02:01
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hi i think there are functions for that to put in controlDict.
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Old   June 2, 2013, 04:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by immortality View Post
hi i think there are functions for that to put in controlDict.
hi Dear ehsan,
i know that we have functions that give us, "forceCoeffs". this function need lRef and ARef. as i said i have a tree element airfoil, and i don't know what should i write for ARef&lRef in this function. i don't know if i should write the total Chord for all of them or i should write the chord of each element, for each of them separately?!
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Old   June 2, 2013, 09:12
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Hi Saideh
I think you should define different numbers for main part,slat and the flap if you want to calculate each part role in Cl an Cd.
I'll look into your case ASAP.
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Last edited by immortality; June 3, 2013 at 12:41.
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Old   June 3, 2013, 05:23
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Hi,

to explain what to do you first have to understand what is written in your
force.dat file:

forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449
6.41497 -2.43225e-19))
moment(pressure, viscous)((-8.28657e-22 1.45304e-19 8222.87)
(5.57025e-20 3.72086e-20 0.0120865))

what you basically get is viscous and pressure forces as well as
a viscous and pressure moment.

This set of numbers: (-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) e.g
represent the pressure forces in x y and z direction
so if z is your altitude z=-1.7e-19 is representing the pressure part
of your lift force.

In order to get the coefficients you can use a formula like this:
for pressure e.g.
cp = Fp / (0.5 * rho * Uinf^2 * Aref)

with Fp being the pressure force in z direction
rho being the density of your surrounding fluid
Uinf being the velocity
and Aref being a reference area.

Now that you've asked for Aref. this one depends on what you have
specified in your controlDict.
For ships Aref is the wetted surface area and Lref is the length of the
waterline.
For airfoils you can do the same but as far as I remember
(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) for Aref the crossectional
area and Lref the chord length is commonly used.

I hope my explanations are of assistance

regards
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Old   June 3, 2013, 07:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
Hi,

to explain what to do you first have to understand what is written in your
force.dat file:

forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449
6.41497 -2.43225e-19))
moment(pressure, viscous)((-8.28657e-22 1.45304e-19 8222.87)
(5.57025e-20 3.72086e-20 0.0120865))

what you basically get is viscous and pressure forces as well as
a viscous and pressure moment.

This set of numbers: (-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) e.g
represent the pressure forces in x y and z direction
so if z is your altitude z=-1.7e-19 is representing the pressure part
of your lift force.

In order to get the coefficients you can use a formula like this:
for pressure e.g.
cp = Fp / (0.5 * rho * Uinf^2 * Aref)

with Fp being the pressure force in z direction
rho being the density of your surrounding fluid
Uinf being the velocity
and Aref being a reference area.

Now that you've asked for Aref. this one depends on what you have
specified in your controlDict.
For ships Aref is the wetted surface area and Lref is the length of the
waterline.
For airfoils you can do the same but as far as I remember
(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) for Aref the crossectional
area and Lref the chord length is commonly used.

I hope my explanations are of assistance

regards
hi Dear colinB.
thank you very much, your explanation will help me a lot.
yes you are right, for the one element airfoil, we set lRef=chord length
and ARef= chord length*depth of the mesh.
i have tree element airfoil. i write three function for each element separately. in your opinion, i should write lRef and Aref for all of them equal or i should write the chord of each part for it's lRef?
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File Type: txt controlDict.txt (3.4 KB, 19 views)
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Old   June 3, 2013, 08:15
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Hi,
this is a tricky question and I actually don't know the answer,
however using some common sense I would suggest to use
the geometry properties from each part you are investigating
so for the first part ARef1 and lRef1 for the second part Aref2 and lRef2
and so on.
With this method you will gain the contributions of each wing part to
the total drag/lift whatever.

Only if you want to compare similar geometries you would use the same ARef
as well as the same lRef e.g. to evaluate the best profile to achieve a certain
task (best lift/ best drag), however probably only if this really comes close
to the reality.

regards
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Old   June 3, 2013, 08:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
Hi,
this is a tricky question and I actually don't know the answer,
however using some common sense I would suggest to use
the geometry properties from each part you are investigating
so for the first part ARef1 and lRef1 for the second part Aref2 and lRef2
and so on.
With this method you will gain the contributions of each wing part to
the total drag/lift whatever.

Only if you want to compare similar geometries you would use the same ARef
as well as the same lRef e.g. to evaluate the best profile to achieve a certain
task (best lift/ best drag), however probably only if this really comes close
to the reality.

regards
thank you
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Old   June 3, 2013, 09:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
Hi,

to explain what to do you first have to understand what is written in your
force.dat file:

forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449
6.41497 -2.43225e-19))
moment(pressure, viscous)((-8.28657e-22 1.45304e-19 8222.87)
(5.57025e-20 3.72086e-20 0.0120865))

what you basically get is viscous and pressure forces as well as
a viscous and pressure moment.

This set of numbers: (-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) e.g
represent the pressure forces in x y and z direction
so if z is your altitude z=-1.7e-19 is representing the pressure part
of your lift force.

In order to get the coefficients you can use a formula like this:
for pressure e.g.
cp = Fp / (0.5 * rho * Uinf^2 * Aref)

with Fp being the pressure force in z direction
rho being the density of your surrounding fluid
Uinf being the velocity
and Aref being a reference area.

Now that you've asked for Aref. this one depends on what you have
specified in your controlDict.
For ships Aref is the wetted surface area and Lref is the length of the
waterline.
For airfoils you can do the same but as far as I remember
(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) for Aref the crossectional
area and Lref the chord length is commonly used.

I hope my explanations are of assistance

regards
Dear colinB,
i want to know that i get your meaning right or not,
as you see my airfoil is in the "x-y" plane, and it's chord is along the x axis.
as we now, "total lift=viscous lift+pressure lift "
so, for computing the "cl of viscous lift" i should choose "6.41497" from the force result above.and for computing the "cl of pressure lift" i should choose "18309.5" from the force result above. now i should divided these two forces " "6.41497" and "18309.5" " to "(0.5 * rho * Uinf^2 * Aref) " separately, and at the end, the sum of clviscous and clpressure is the lift coefficient that i want.
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File Type: jpg stl.jpg (25.1 KB, 29 views)
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Old   June 3, 2013, 10:27
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yes you got me right


However if you are only interested in ct you can also add up all forces in y
direction and then divide them by (0.5*rho.......)
for the term you are dividing by is constant

regards
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Old   June 4, 2013, 01:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
yes you got me right


However if you are only interested in ct you can also add up all forces in y
direction and then divide them by (0.5*rho.......)
for the term you are dividing by is constant

regards
i don't understand this sentence "if you are only interested in ct you can also add up all forces in y
direction"
wold you please explain more on the file in the attachment?
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File Type: gz forces-main.tar.gz (24.0 KB, 10 views)
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Old   June 4, 2013, 05:25
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total Liftforce = pressure Liftforce + viscous Liftforce

total cl - pressure cp + viscous cp


Code:
press.Force+visc.Force        press.Force                 visc.Force
----------------------- = --------------------- + ---------------------
0.5*rho*Uinf^2* Aref        0.5*rho*Uinf^2*Aref     0.5*rho*Uinf^2* Aref
if you know what I mean ;-)
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Old   June 4, 2013, 05:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
total Liftforce = pressure Liftforce + viscous Liftforce

total cl - pressure cp + viscous cp


Code:
press.Force+visc.Force        press.Force                 visc.Force
----------------------- = --------------------- + ---------------------
0.5*rho*Uinf^2* Aref        0.5*rho*Uinf^2*Aref     0.5*rho*Uinf^2* Aref
if you know what I mean ;-)
thank you, you mean "total cl = pressure cl+viscous cl" from equation above?

my question is : how i should obtain the press.Force and visc.Force,
if my simulation is converged after e.g 300 iteration, i should add the second term of pressure force "Fy" for all iteration; to obtain press.Force that you write above? or i should pick the the second term of pressure force "Fy" from the last iteration only, to obtain the cl that is resulted from pressure force.
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Old   June 4, 2013, 06:32
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Quote:
thank you, you mean "total cl = pressure cl+viscous cl" from equation above?
sry for the typos, but you are right.
with pressure and viscous Force I was referring to the pressure and
viscous part of the lift forces, again sorry for my incomplete description.

Well to get the values you need to average them over the last iterations
when you see the calculation has stabilized. (I'm referring here to the y
values which represent the lift forces in your calc.)
e.g. I'm running a calculation with 10000 Iterations and I can observe that
the the forces oscillate around a certain value from Iteration 7000 on
I'm going to take the average over the last 3000 Iterations.
If the values are approaching a certain value you have to be little bit more
careful.

In order to get the absolute pressure/viscous forces you need to calculate
the vector with 3D Pythagoras with all three values being within the
brackets in your force.dat file.

I hope I got your question right
regards
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Old   October 15, 2013, 04:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
sry for the typos, but you are right.
with pressure and viscous Force I was referring to the pressure and
viscous part of the lift forces, again sorry for my incomplete description.

Well to get the values you need to average them over the last iterations
when you see the calculation has stabilized. (I'm referring here to the y
values which represent the lift forces in your calc.)
e.g. I'm running a calculation with 10000 Iterations and I can observe that
the the forces oscillate around a certain value from Iteration 7000 on
I'm going to take the average over the last 3000 Iterations.
If the values are approaching a certain value you have to be little bit more
careful.

In order to get the absolute pressure/viscous forces you need to calculate
the vector with 3D Pythagoras with all three values being within the
brackets in your force.dat file.


I hope I got your question right
regards

Dear colinB

would you please explain more the last paragraph of your explanation?
"In order to get the absolute pressure/viscous forces you need to calculate
the vector with 3D Pythagoras with all three values being within the
brackets in your force.dat file. "

how should i calculate the vector with 3D Pythagoras ?
i don't know what 3D Pythagoras is?
Thank you very much
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Old   October 15, 2013, 07:34
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Hi,
sorry for my non-scientific language ;-)

I was referring to the formula:

Code:
|a| = sqrt(a1^2 + a2^2 + a3^2)
to calculate the length of a vector.
Since this is a further development of Pythagoras' famous
c^2 = a^2 + b^2
I simply called it 3D Pythagoras.

I hope that clarifys this matter
regards
Colin
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Old   March 18, 2014, 22:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinB View Post
Hi,

to explain what to do you first have to understand what is written in your
force.dat file:

forces(pressure, viscous)((-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) (68.6449
6.41497 -2.43225e-19))
moment(pressure, viscous)((-8.28657e-22 1.45304e-19 8222.87)
(5.57025e-20 3.72086e-20 0.0120865))

what you basically get is viscous and pressure forces as well as
a viscous and pressure moment.

This set of numbers: (-778.236 18309.5 -1.17287e-19) e.g
represent the pressure forces in x y and z direction
so if z is your altitude z=-1.7e-19 is representing the pressure part
of your lift force.

In order to get the coefficients you can use a formula like this:
for pressure e.g.
cp = Fp / (0.5 * rho * Uinf^2 * Aref)

with Fp being the pressure force in z direction
rho being the density of your surrounding fluid
Uinf being the velocity
and Aref being a reference area.

Now that you've asked for Aref. this one depends on what you have
specified in your controlDict.
For ships Aref is the wetted surface area and Lref is the length of the
waterline.
For airfoils you can do the same but as far as I remember
(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) for Aref the crossectional
area and Lref the chord length is commonly used.

I hope my explanations are of assistance

regards
Hi bro,

I know that pressure in CFD is scalar, you can tell it from document 0/p. But this pressure force:
Code:
forces(pressure,viscous,porous) moment(pressure,viscous,porous)
0.01	((122.847 3.11355 1.99776e-16),(2.35502 0.0580908 -6.78944e-19),(0 0 0)) ((-0.0778387 3.07116 -647.967),(-0.00145227 0.0588756 -3.40765),(0 0 0))
It is a vector. So Im confused. Is this the pressure in some point?
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