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Problems with IDDES in openfoam2.1.1

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Old   April 26, 2013, 05:40
Default Problems with IDDES in openfoam2.1.1
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Sha Huang
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Dear Foamers:
I am now trying to use IDDES to simulate the aerodynamic performance of high-speed train, but i got the errors shows below:

request for RASModel RASProperties from objectRegistry region0 failed
available objects of type RASModel are
0
(
)

Can any one help me with with.
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Old   April 26, 2013, 20:25
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Greetings Joanna Huang,

It would help if you could describe the steps you've taken to reach that error message.

From what I can figure out, there is an "IDDESDelta" class in OpenFOAM's source code at "src/turbulenceModels/incompressible/LES/SpalartAllmarasIDDES/IDDESDelta/", which is part of the incompressible LES turbulence library. The error you're getting is referring to the RAS model... so I can only guess that you'll need to switch to the LES model instead.

Best regards,
Bruno
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Old   April 29, 2013, 05:13
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Hi Bruno,
Thank you for your answer. So for IDDES simulation, I don't need RASProperties file in constant directory, the IDDES LES turbulence modle will activate RASmodel automaticlly to sovle the near wall region. Am I right?

Best Regards,
Joanna
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Old   April 29, 2013, 17:46
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Hi Joanna,

You can only use LES or RAS, not both at the same time... or at least I don't think so.

Have a look at the tutorial "incompressible/pisoFoam/les/pitzDaily" to see how to set-up a case to simulate with LES.

Best regards,
Bruno
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Old   April 30, 2013, 05:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyldckat View Post
Hi Joanna,

You can only use LES or RAS, not both at the same time... or at least I don't think so.

Have a look at the tutorial "incompressible/pisoFoam/les/pitzDaily" to see how to set-up a case to simulate with LES.

Best regards,
Bruno
Hi Bruno,
Thank you for your kindly answering. I am a little confused, the IDDES is a hybrid mehod of RANS and LES, how can I control it and separate it. Below I attach the Case I am doing(contains the 0,constant,system), Can you kindly tell me what is the problem. Thank you so much.
Attached Files
File Type: zip case.zip (4.1 KB, 8 views)
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Old   May 1, 2013, 05:00
Default Problems with IDDES in openfoam2.1.1
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Dear Foamers:
I am now trying to use IDDES to simulate the aerodynamic performance of high-speed train, but i got the error showed below:

request for RASModel RASProperties from objectRegistry region0 failed
available objects of type RASModel are
0
(
)

Is anyone familar with this error, Can anyone help me with this.
Below I attach the file case(0, constant, sysytem),it will be really greatful if somebody could figue this out.

Best regards,
Joanna
Attached Files
File Type: zip case.zip (12.0 KB, 11 views)
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Old   May 1, 2013, 07:01
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Hi Joanna,

I've moved the other thread into this new thread you created, so that the whole story was easily readable by others.

OK, I've given it a try and here's what I've managed to figure out:
  1. Just for reference, there is a thread on the topic of RANS and LES: LES vs RANS
  2. It looks like the "SpalartAllmaras" model is present on both the RAS and LES side.
  3. But "SpalartAllmarasDDES" and "SpalartAllmarasIDDES" are only present on the LES side. This is possibly because the OpenFOAM authors did not have yet a request to make these two models work on the RAS side.
  4. You can look at the source code in the following folders and try to implement the "SpalartAllmarasIDDES" model for the RAS side; run in the terminal the following commands, to see where the "SpalartAllmaras" models are located:
    Code:
    echo $FOAM_SRC/turbulenceModels/incompressible/RAS/SpalartAllmaras
    echo $FOAM_SRC/turbulenceModels/incompressible/LES/SpalartAllmaras
    The IDDES one can found by running:
    Code:
    echo $FOAM_SRC/turbulenceModels/incompressible/LES/SpalartAllmarasIDDES
  5. Nonetheless, if the case can be executed with LES, I've changed inside the file "constant/LESProperties" the following entry:
    Code:
    SpalartAllmarasIDDESCoeffs
    {
         delta  IDDESDelta;
    
         IDDESDeltaCoeffs
         {
             deltaCoeff       1;
    
             //according to src/turbulenceModels/incompressible/LES/SpalartAllmarasIDDES/IDDESDelta/IDDESDelta.C
             cw               0.15;
         }
    
         alphaNut         1.5;
         kappa            0.4187;
         Cb1              0.1355;
         Cb2              0.622;
         Cw2              0.3;
         Cw3              2.0;
         Cv1              7.1;
         Cv2              5.0;
         CDES             0.65;
         ck               0.07;
    
    //These are the default values
    //     sigmaNut        0.66666;
    //     kappa           0.41;
    //     Cb1             0.1355;
    //     Cb2             0.622;
    //     Cv1             7.1;
    //     Cv2             5;
    //     CDES            0.65;
    //     ck              0.07;
    //     Cw2             0.3;
    //     Cw3             2;
    //     fwStar          0.424;
    //     cl              3.55;
    //     ct              1.63;
    
    }
    The only difference is that I added the references to the default values that OpenFOAM uses.
Best regards,
Bruno
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Old   May 2, 2013, 08:52
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Hi Joanna,

I've found out a couple more helpful details:
  1. It looks like the DES and IDDES models are on the LES side, but it might look like they can work on both LES and RAS, simply by using them on the LES side.
  2. There is someone else also working with DES, but that forum member is using OpenFOAM 2.2: How to use DESModelRegions function object - instructions are provided there that help get the indication of how much is LES and RAS being used!
Best regards,
Bruno
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Old   May 2, 2013, 12:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyldckat View Post
Hi Joanna,

I've found out a couple more helpful details:
  1. It looks like the DES and IDDES models are on the LES side, but it might look like they can work on both LES and RAS, simply by using them on the LES side.
  2. There is someone else also working with DES, but that forum member is using OpenFOAM 2.2: How to use DESModelRegions function object - instructions are provided there that help get the indication of how much is LES and RAS being used!
Best regards,
Bruno

Hi, Bruno
Yes, the IDDES should work both LES and RAS side, but I still didn't figue out how this error happens:

request for RASModel RASProperties from objectRegistry region0 failed
available objects of type RASModel are
0
(
)

it seems the RAS can't be activated for IDDES. Have you checked my case, is anywhere I set in a wrong way?

Thank you for the information above, it also helpful

Best regard,
Joanna.
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Old   May 2, 2013, 15:12
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Hi Joanna,

Quote:
Code:
request for RASModel RASProperties from objectRegistry region0 failed
available objects of type RASModel are
0
(
)
Which solver did you use?



Either way, I've now proven that the trick is to set-up things to work in LES mode, using in "constant/turbulenceProperties":
Code:
simulationType  LESModel;

turbulenceModel SpalartAllmarasIDDES; 

turbulence      on;
And in "constant/LESProperties" use:
Code:
LESModel            SpalartAllmarasIDDES;

delta               cubeRootVol;

printCoeffs         on;
I've used the solver pisoFoam, based on the latest case you attached. Attached to this post you can find 2 test cases:
  • "case.211.tar.gz" - The case is prepared to run with OpenFOAM 2.1.1.
  • "case.22x.tar.gz" - The case is prepared to run with OpenFOAM 2.2.x. The detail on this case is that it is using the "DESModelRegions" which gives valuable information about how much of the domain is running in RAS and how much in LES, as explained here: How to use DESModelRegions function object - post #2
Both cases can be executed by running the following commands:
Code:
blockMesh -dict constant/polyMeshOrg/blockMeshDict
pisoFoam
Or for running in parallel:
Code:
blockMesh -dict constant/polyMeshOrg/blockMeshDict
decomposePar

foamJob -p pisoFoam
Best regards,
Bruno
Attached Files
File Type: gz case.211.tar.gz (4.6 KB, 24 views)
File Type: gz case.22x.tar.gz (4.6 KB, 36 views)
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Old   May 3, 2013, 05:05
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Hi Bruno,

Thank you so much for your usefule information, these really help me lots. I am now testing the case you posted (still queuing in the cluster), I hope it works.

Thanks again and have a nice weekend then.

Best regards.
Joanna
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Old   October 6, 2013, 15:53
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Dear Bruno
Thank you for your helpful comments in this post and also in How to use DESModelRegions function object
I have a more fundamental question:
is the IDDES model that is implemented in OpenFOAM a low-Re or High-Re model?
I mean what is the best range of the first point Yplus for the walls?
can it be used with wall functions for High-Re problems?or it needs very fine mesh near the wall?
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Old   October 6, 2013, 16:40
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Hi Mohsen,

Prepare to be amazed as I do the simplest of tricks! I shall look at the source code! https://github.com/OpenFOAM/OpenFOAM...DESDelta.H#L28
Quote:
IDDESDelta used by the IDDES (improved low Re Spalart-Allmaras DES model)
The min and max delta are calculated using the double distance of the min or
max from the face centre to the cell centre.
"And how did you do this?" I hear you ask!
I went to the online code documentation: http://www.openfoam.org/docs/cpp/ - which is accessible from the main OpenFOAM web site - http://www.openfoam.org - I looked at the menu, the "Documentation" entry and flew my mouse cursor over it and it showed me the "C++ Source Guide". I clicked on it and it took me to the page I speak of.

From there, I searched for "IDDES" and so it gave me this page: http://foam.sourceforge.net/docs/cpp/a00881.html (actually because I accessed from http://foam.sourceforge.net/docs/cpp/ )


But since this link will be outdated as soon as another OpenFOAM release is made, I looked at the "Detailed Description" section on that page and there were links to the source code (which don't work very well). I then went to the online repository at https://github.com/OpenFOAM/OpenFOAM-2.2.x/ and did a bit of magic (copy-paste-adapted the link given before) et voilą, the answer is shown again at the link I gave at first

Best regards,
Bruno
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Old   October 7, 2013, 04:37
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Thanks Bruno
But ANSYS FLUENT 12.0 Theory Guide section 4.10 (which I quote here) Says :
Quote:
DES models have been specifically designed to address high Reynolds number wall bounded flows, where the cost of a near-wall resolving Large Eddy Simulation would be prohibitive. The difference with the LES model is that it relies only on the required resolution in the boundary layers.
or:
Quote:
The DES models, often referred to as the hybrid LES/RANS models combine RANS modeling with LES for applications such as high-Re external aerodynamics simulations. In ANSYS FLUENT, the DES model is based on the one-equation Spalart-Allmaras model, the realizable k- model, and the SST k-ω model.
Well, as you see ANSYS FLUENT has more options for DES. the realizable k-e model is a High-Re model which requires larger Y+ near the wall for using wall functions.
I think we do not have such options in OpenFOAM.
Please let me know if you find more about this matter.
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Old   October 7, 2013, 16:02
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Hi Mohsen,

I did a quick search with Google and had another look into the code documentation and here is what I found:
  1. http://www.openfoam.com/features/turbulence.php
    Quote:
    Detached eddy simulation (DES): Hybrid method that treats near-wall regions with a RAS approach and the bulk flow with an LES approach. DES models are found in the list of LES models.
  2. http://www.openfoam.com/features/LES.php
    Quote:
    SpalartAllmarasDDES - Spalart-Allmaras delayed detached eddy simulation (DDES) model
    SpalartAllmarasIDDES - Spalart-Allmaras improved DDES (IDDES) model
  3. https://github.com/OpenFOAM/OpenFOAM...AllmarasDDES.H
    Quote:
    Code:
     SpalartAllmaras DDES LES turbulence model for incompressible flows
    
    Reference:
    P.R. Spalart, S. Deck, S., M.L.Shur, K.D. Squires, M.Kh Strelets, and
    A. Travin. `A new version of detached-eddy simulation, resistant to
    ambiguous grid densities'. Theor. Comp. Fluid Dyn., 20:181-195, 2006.
  4. https://github.com/OpenFOAM/OpenFOAM...llmarasIDDES.H
    Quote:
    Code:
    SpalartAllmarasIDDES LES turbulence model for incompressible flows
For more information I suggest that you ask the people at OpenCFD directly, through their support page.

Best regards,
Bruno
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Old   October 7, 2013, 16:43
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Thank you so much Bruno
Yeah, I've seen the sources of DDES & IDDES in OpenFOAM.
O.K. I will contact them.
Thanks
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Old   October 11, 2013, 18:03
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Hi Mohsen,

Please do share the answer with us, if you get one from them!

Best regards,
Bruno
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