How to simulate hot flue with fine dust flows with subsequent quenching?

lord_kossity · June 13, 2008, 05:02

Ah, ok. Right now I finally found these books in our University Library. So I'm now going to see if they exist also in reality :-)

niklas · June 13, 2008, 06:11

I have a small perl-script to help me in this that
you might want to use

http://files.nequam.se/liquidProperties.tgz

the units in the NSRDS tables are per mole and not per kg, so some coefficients needs to be recalculated.

there is an example file for water that shows you how its done.
to create the foam .C and .H files just run
./nsrds2foam.pl props.water

lord_kossity · June 13, 2008, 08:06

Thank you very much.

I'll soon have a look at it!

lord_kossity · June 16, 2008, 07:33

Hi Niklas,

Another thing...
Since you are still into combustion research (as far as I know/imagine) I have another question to you; in your PhD you mention that "a practical Eulerian treatment of the spray [...] will not be realizable for some time." According to another thread (http://www.cfd-online.com/OpenFOAM_D...tml?1213613536),
I'm interested if it is now possible to simulate combustion using Euler-Euler methods?

Best regards,
Andreas

niklas · June 16, 2008, 15:48

In openfoam - not at the moment afaik, but im working on it

Im currently looking into the ELSA approach.

lord_kossity · June 17, 2008, 03:01

Sounds quite interesting to me

Could you share some of your literature with me?

lord_kossity · June 17, 2008, 06:01

Back to the original topic of NSRDS functions and adding liquids...

Today I managed to order the "Data compilation tables of properties of pure compounds" to our TU library

What I'm thinking about now is:
Will it be possible to add solid molecules instead of liquid ones or am I then going to run into conflicts concerning atomization an break up for example?

niklas · June 23, 2008, 02:16

SAE 2005-01-0213
Coupling Vaporization Model with the Eulerian ....
Lebas, et al.

SAE 2003-01-0005
A 3D Eulerian Model to Improve the Primary Breakup of Atomizing Jet
Blokkeel, et al.

Numerically, its all about Reynolds and Weber numbers so it doesnt matter if its solid or liquid, as long as surface tension, density, viscosity exist and produce usable number.
And you can always turn off any model you dont need.

lord_kossity · June 24, 2008, 03:59

Thank you very much for the references!

The reason for me asking if it is possible to include solid molecules is that in your example of H2O and the according "props.water" file all the coefficients for the solid properties are omitted (e.g. solid heat capacity).

How can I add these values for example if I want to create the foam .C and .H files for NaCl?

niklas · June 24, 2008, 06:20

solid properties have been omitted from the 'liquids'.

If you still would like to use it I suggest you just replace the heat capacity with the solid heat capacity. etc.

lord_kossity · July 1, 2008, 08:19

It doesn't seem to be that easy to implement solids using your pearl script...

I'm running into the error "Equation for latent heat of evaporation is not implemented yet."
Could you please help me out!?

niklas · July 1, 2008, 09:24

which equation is it.

lord_kossity · July 1, 2008, 09:38

It's the equation for Heat of Vaporization.
For water it is "solved" using NSRDS function 106 (4 coeeficients).
For NaCl it is "solved" using NSRDS function 100 (only 1 coefficient given).

It seems like that's the problem...

lord_kossity · July 2, 2008, 05:08

Now that the problem is solved, I add NACL to the liquids directory and run "wmake libso".
At first it looks quite promising;
'dependency list for source file NACL/NACL.C' is made and '~/OpenFOAM/OpenFOAM-1.4.1/lib/linux64GccDPOpt/libliquids.so' is updated.

But when I try to run my case a FATAL ERROR occurs: Unknown liquid type NACL

why is that???

niklas · July 2, 2008, 06:16

You need to add
NACL/NACL.C
to the src/liquids/Make/files file

then you can run 'wmake libso'

lord_kossity · July 2, 2008, 06:47

Well, I already added that "NACL/NACL.C" line in any file in the Make directory. - Without any success...

niklas · July 2, 2008, 06:53

try recompiling the lagrangian stuff and the dieselFoam application.

lord_kossity · July 2, 2008, 08:01

anyhow, that doesn't work either.
I recompiled the three directories in the lagrangian subdirectory and also the dieselFoam solver.
But NACL is still unknown.

Do you have any further hints?

farbfilm · March 25, 2009, 04:46

Hi Niklas,

did you have success with the ELSA approach??
I would be very interested...

ENKIME · November 21, 2014, 15:09

Thanks a lot Mr. Nordin for this post, I'm using Perry's handbook for determine the properties, did you have any other suggest?
Thanks a lot
Kind regards

June 13, 2008, 05:02	Ah, ok. Right now I finally fo	#21
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Ah, ok. Right now I finally found these books in our University Library. So I'm now going to see if they exist also in reality :-)

June 13, 2008, 06:11	I have a small perl-script to	#22
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	I have a small perl-script to help me in this that you might want to use http://files.nequam.se/liquidProperties.tgz the units in the NSRDS tables are per mole and not per kg, so some coefficients needs to be recalculated. there is an example file for water that shows you how its done. to create the foam .C and .H files just run ./nsrds2foam.pl props.water

June 13, 2008, 08:06	Thank you very much. I'll s	#23
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Thank you very much. I'll soon have a look at it!

June 16, 2008, 07:33	Hi Niklas, Another thing...	#24
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Hi Niklas, Another thing... Since you are still into combustion research (as far as I know/imagine) I have another question to you; in your PhD you mention that "a practical Eulerian treatment of the spray [...] will not be realizable for some time." According to another thread (http://www.cfd-online.com/OpenFOAM_D...tml?1213613536), I'm interested if it is now possible to simulate combustion using Euler-Euler methods? Best regards, Andreas

June 16, 2008, 15:48	In openfoam - not at the momen	#25
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	In openfoam - not at the moment afaik, but im working on it Im currently looking into the ELSA approach.

June 17, 2008, 03:01	Sounds quite interesting to me	#26
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Sounds quite interesting to me Could you share some of your literature with me?

June 17, 2008, 06:01	Back to the original topic of	#27
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Back to the original topic of NSRDS functions and adding liquids... Today I managed to order the "Data compilation tables of properties of pure compounds" to our TU library What I'm thinking about now is: Will it be possible to add solid molecules instead of liquid ones or am I then going to run into conflicts concerning atomization an break up for example?

June 23, 2008, 02:16	SAE 2005-01-0213 Coupling Vap	#28
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	SAE 2005-01-0213 Coupling Vaporization Model with the Eulerian .... Lebas, et al. SAE 2003-01-0005 A 3D Eulerian Model to Improve the Primary Breakup of Atomizing Jet Blokkeel, et al. Numerically, its all about Reynolds and Weber numbers so it doesnt matter if its solid or liquid, as long as surface tension, density, viscosity exist and produce usable number. And you can always turn off any model you dont need.

June 24, 2008, 03:59	Thank you very much for the re	#29
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Thank you very much for the references! The reason for me asking if it is possible to include solid molecules is that in your example of H2O and the according "props.water" file all the coefficients for the solid properties are omitted (e.g. solid heat capacity). How can I add these values for example if I want to create the foam .C and .H files for NaCl?

June 24, 2008, 06:20	solid properties have been omi	#30
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	solid properties have been omitted from the 'liquids'. If you still would like to use it I suggest you just replace the heat capacity with the solid heat capacity. etc.

July 1, 2008, 08:19	It doesn't seem to be that eas	#31
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	It doesn't seem to be that easy to implement solids using your pearl script... I'm running into the error "Equation for latent heat of evaporation is not implemented yet." Could you please help me out!?

July 1, 2008, 09:24	which equation is it.	#32
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	which equation is it.

July 1, 2008, 09:38	It's the equation for Heat of	#33
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	It's the equation for Heat of Vaporization. For water it is "solved" using NSRDS function 106 (4 coeeficients). For NaCl it is "solved" using NSRDS function 100 (only 1 coefficient given). It seems like that's the problem...

July 2, 2008, 05:08	Now that the problem is solved	#34
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Now that the problem is solved, I add NACL to the liquids directory and run "wmake libso". At first it looks quite promising; 'dependency list for source file NACL/NACL.C' is made and '~/OpenFOAM/OpenFOAM-1.4.1/lib/linux64GccDPOpt/libliquids.so' is updated. But when I try to run my case a FATAL ERROR occurs: Unknown liquid type NACL why is that???

July 2, 2008, 06:16	You need to add NACL/NACL.C	#35
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	You need to add NACL/NACL.C to the src/liquids/Make/files file then you can run 'wmake libso'

July 2, 2008, 06:47	Well, I already added that "NA	#36
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	Well, I already added that "NACL/NACL.C" line in any file in the Make directory. - Without any success...

July 2, 2008, 06:53	try recompiling the lagrangian	#37
niklas Super Moderator Niklas Nordin Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 693 Rep Power: 29	try recompiling the lagrangian stuff and the dieselFoam application.

July 2, 2008, 08:01	anyhow, that doesn't work eith	#38
lord_kossity Member Andreas Dietz Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Munich Posts: 79 Rep Power: 17	anyhow, that doesn't work either. I recompiled the three directories in the lagrangian subdirectory and also the dieselFoam solver. But NACL is still unknown. Do you have any further hints?

March 25, 2009, 04:46		#39
farbfilm Member Michael Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 48 Rep Power: 17	Hi Niklas, did you have success with the ELSA approach?? I would be very interested...

November 21, 2014, 15:09		#40
ENKIME Member yes Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 32 Rep Power: 12	Thanks a lot Mr. Nordin for this post, I'm using Perry's handbook for determine the properties, did you have any other suggest? Thanks a lot Kind regards