[ICEM] Negative volumes

Bollonga · January 26, 2013, 05:23

Hi everybody,

I'm working on a 3D geometry of an inclined flat plate. I'm doing a hexa mesh as it is a rather simple topology. Before converting it into unstructured mesh (to export it to Fluent) I check it and fix the problems, then I smooth (with smooth for hex/orth mesh tool) it for 10 iterations, including the volume orientations option. I also make the first layer to be 1e-5 to have a low y+.

The problem is that Fluent says there are negative volumes, and I can't fix it with Icem tools.

How can I solve that?

Any suggestions are welcome! Thanks!

Bollonga · January 26, 2013, 06:11

This is the message that always appears when I try to fix or to smooth the mesh:

Running diagnostics for Volume orientations in subset "all"
52 problems were found for Volume orientations
52 elements could not be fixed -- probably the element quality is too bad.

Bollonga · January 26, 2013, 07:07

I've ploted the negative volume elements, they are all in two blocks. I've redone the edge and vertex associations and remeshed, nothing changed.
I've tried to invert blocks orientations, and nothing has changed.

What else can I try? Please help.

Daniel C · January 26, 2013, 08:28

I am currently running into the same problem. I assume it is caused by the geometry. Have you loaded a step file? You could check if the coordinates off all points are properly aligned.

Just a thought.

Bollonga · January 27, 2013, 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel C

I am currently running into the same problem. I assume it is caused by the geometry. Have you loaded a step file? You could check if the coordinates off all points are properly aligned.

Just a thought.

I've just made all the geometry as it is rather simple. I'm trying now to improve the quality cause I haven't noticed before the Quality menu in the blocking tab. It's giving error messages like the one in the image.

I guess I have to improve the quality, but this messages doesn't allow me to proceed!

Far · January 27, 2013, 06:09

Hi.

There must some basic mistake. Smoothing will not help in this case...

Bollonga · January 27, 2013, 06:26

I have many negative 3x3 determinants, I don't know what that means, but I'm trying fixing it with the quality up to -0.7 which is the minimum value reached. If I put a positive value, i.e. 0.2, the former message appears. I'm waiting for the results now, I'll let you know.

Far · January 27, 2013, 06:41

There are many reasons like you had in previous posts. Or it may be due to block orientation and can be rectified through tools in blocking tab or edit mesh tab.

Few pics or icem files would be necessary to comment further.

Bollonga · January 27, 2013, 08:16

Hi Far,

Here you are my icem files. I haven't uploaded the .uns files cause they're pretty big.
I have similar problems with a bigger mesh (1.8Gb) so I'd like to know the process to fix it.

Thanks!

Far · January 27, 2013, 08:27

Same problem so same solution. Please refer to your own thread and read Post # 16.

Post # 16 By Simon
http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/ans...em-fluent.html

Bollonga · January 28, 2013, 07:20

I've redone all the blocking again until I got no negative 3x3x3 determinant. I don't know why I can never execute the pre-mesh quality tool. All the same I's smooth it 20 iterations and exported it to fluent. I all seems to go okay but fluent says there are some left-handed and right-handed faces. I'm already running the simulation but I would like to know what that means and how to fix it.

I've searched this thread but I didn't get much useful info.
http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/flu...nded-face.html

Thanks!

Pospelov · January 28, 2013, 08:03

Hello.
You have missed the surface.

Bollonga · January 28, 2013, 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pospelov

Hello.
You have missed the surface.

Thanks, I already corrected that.

Far · January 28, 2013, 09:29

I think it is very simple case for ICEM. I also see many curves and points which are really not required in ICEM except they are made for some special purpose and in fact it is the hidden power of ICEM.

Pospelov · January 28, 2013, 10:25

And you should create O block like this. ))))

Bollonga · January 28, 2013, 10:31

Thanks Far, my blocking is still running without any problem. It is very similar to the one you made for me. I'll let you know the results.

Bollonga · January 28, 2013, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pospelov

And you should create O block like this. ))))

Thanks a lot Pospelov! You have used the o-grid block option in the blocking tab, right? I also use to force some 1st layer thickness at the smoothing stage.

Pospelov · January 28, 2013, 10:43

Yes. I used it there.

Far · January 28, 2013, 10:44

Yes O-grid will make the solution more accurate

Bollonga · January 28, 2013, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pospelov

And you should create O block like this. ))))

How have you made this O-grid exactly? from block? from faces? Edges? vertices?

Thanks

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January 26, 2013, 06:11		#2
Bollonga Senior Member Francisco Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Spain Posts: 273 Rep Power: 15	This is the message that always appears when I try to fix or to smooth the mesh: Running diagnostics for Volume orientations in subset "all" 52 problems were found for Volume orientations 52 elements could not be fixed -- probably the element quality is too bad.

January 26, 2013, 07:07		#3
Bollonga Senior Member Francisco Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Spain Posts: 273 Rep Power: 15	I've ploted the negative volume elements, they are all in two blocks. I've redone the edge and vertex associations and remeshed, nothing changed. I've tried to invert blocks orientations, and nothing has changed. What else can I try? Please help.

January 26, 2013, 08:28		#4
Daniel C Member Daniel Ceglarski Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Essen, Germany Posts: 50 Rep Power: 13	I am currently running into the same problem. I assume it is caused by the geometry. Have you loaded a step file? You could check if the coordinates off all points are properly aligned. Just a thought.

January 27, 2013, 06:09		#6
Far Super Moderator Sijal Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Islamabad Posts: 4,553 Blog Entries: 6 Rep Power: 54	Hi. There must some basic mistake. Smoothing will not help in this case...

January 27, 2013, 06:26		#7
Bollonga Senior Member Francisco Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Spain Posts: 273 Rep Power: 15	I have many negative 3x3 determinants, I don't know what that means, but I'm trying fixing it with the quality up to -0.7 which is the minimum value reached. If I put a positive value, i.e. 0.2, the former message appears. I'm waiting for the results now, I'll let you know.

January 27, 2013, 06:41		#8
Far Super Moderator Sijal Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Islamabad Posts: 4,553 Blog Entries: 6 Rep Power: 54	There are many reasons like you had in previous posts. Or it may be due to block orientation and can be rectified through tools in blocking tab or edit mesh tab. Few pics or icem files would be necessary to comment further.

January 27, 2013, 08:27		#10
Far Super Moderator Sijal Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Islamabad Posts: 4,553 Blog Entries: 6 Rep Power: 54	Same problem so same solution. Please refer to your own thread and read Post # 16. Post # 16 By Simon http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/ans...em-fluent.html

January 28, 2013, 07:20		#11
Bollonga Senior Member Francisco Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Spain Posts: 273 Rep Power: 15	I've redone all the blocking again until I got no negative 3x3x3 determinant. I don't know why I can never execute the pre-mesh quality tool. All the same I's smooth it 20 iterations and exported it to fluent. I all seems to go okay but fluent says there are some left-handed and right-handed faces. I'm already running the simulation but I would like to know what that means and how to fix it. I've searched this thread but I didn't get much useful info. http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/flu...nded-face.html Thanks!

January 28, 2013, 10:31		#16
Bollonga Senior Member Francisco Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Spain Posts: 273 Rep Power: 15	Thanks Far, my blocking is still running without any problem. It is very similar to the one you made for me. I'll let you know the results.

January 28, 2013, 10:43		#18
Pospelov Member Alexander Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Blansko, Czech Republic Posts: 30 Rep Power: 16	Yes. I used it there.

January 28, 2013, 10:44		#19
Far Super Moderator Sijal Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Islamabad Posts: 4,553 Blog Entries: 6 Rep Power: 54	Yes O-grid will make the solution more accurate