CFD Online Discussion Forums

CFD Online Discussion Forums (https://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/)
-   CFX (https://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/cfx/)
-   -   permeable wall (https://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/cfx/222590-permeable-wall.html)

zese November 30, 2019 04:24

permeable wall
 
Dear Friends

I have a highly swirling flow in a pipe and I want to damp it before outlet using an external force because I want to have a straight streamline at the outlet. do you know how I can set suction, blowing or permeablity at the wall in cfx?

Best regards

Gert-Jan November 30, 2019 15:11

you can create a volume with subdomain with a high resistance next to the outlet.

But to be honest, why do you want this?

zese November 30, 2019 15:15

Dear Gert-Jan

thanks very much for your answer. excuse me what do you mean about high resistance?

I am aiming to do stability analysis and it is sensitive to the outlet BC and swirl must be damped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gert-Jan (Post 751141)
you can create a volume with subdomain with a high resistance next to the outlet.

But to be honest, why do you want this?


Gert-Jan November 30, 2019 15:23

Then it is better to extend your domain. Meaning, you have to place your outlet further downstream. That's better than adding a volume with flow resistance which is easy but not realistic.

ghorrocks December 1, 2019 02:35

Alternately you can use a source term which sets the swirl velocities to zero.

But as Gert-Jan states, be very careful doing this (or any of the other artificial approaches) as the result might not be realistic. If the actual device is sensitive to swirl then it probably has some device in it to stop the swirl - so then the best approach is to model that device.

zese December 1, 2019 02:39

thank you.
in some papers I saw that they used a sponge region next to the outlet but their Reynolds number was 300 however my Re is 400000 and extending the pipe doesn't damp it in outlet unless I use a very long one which is computationally expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghorrocks (Post 751154)
Alternately you can use a source term which sets the swirl velocities to zero.

But as Gert-Jan states, be very careful doing this (or any of the other artificial approaches) as the result might not be realistic. If the actual device is sensitive to swirl then it probably has some device in it to stop the swirl - so then the best approach is to model that device.


Gert-Jan December 1, 2019 16:44

You need to come with an extended description and a picture of what you are modelling and what the problem exactly is. Otherwise we are not able to help.

zese December 2, 2019 02:59

2 Attachment(s)
you are right

I am modeling a swirl generator which in it's draft tube vortex rope and a high swirling flow happen (fig is attached). now for further calculations I need an area of straight streamlines without swirling near the outlet. In a paper sponge region was proposed which was somehow like porosity assumption. they decreased Re number from 300 to 0.1 in a 60mm distance (fig2). I extended the draft tube for 2 meters it wasnt damped. you talked about flow resistance and after reading manual I didnt know how I should define the coeffs.

In addition some proposed using an external force.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gert-Jan (Post 751190)
You need to come with an extended description and a picture of what you are modelling and what the problem exactly is. Otherwise we are not able to help.


Gert-Jan December 2, 2019 03:42

Weird approach. Why do you need something without swirl? If you explain why you need this, then we might come with a more realistic approach.

Nevertheless, the article did not use resistance. They increased the dynamic viscosity somehow. Probably they had an expression for the dynamic viscosity as function of coordinate Z. Not sure if that is allowed in CFX.
(BTW, I don't believe the low Reynolds numbers given the huge dimensions).

Alternatively, create a additional volume next to the outlet, define a subdomain there with a high resistance (with streamwise coefficients?). But I already mentioned that above. Be carefull, it will increase the pressure which will affect density.

zese December 2, 2019 03:48

I told that I want a flow without swirling at the outlet because stability analysis is highly sensitive to outlet BC. if I dont do such a thing the frequency that the stability show me is not accurate.

about the second picture, yes they used a relation based on z to decrease Re to 0.1 at the outlet and I defined it using function in cfx in nondimensional matter and define a new material.

thank you for your response

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gert-Jan (Post 751227)
Weird approach. Why do you need something without swirl? If you explain why you need this, then we might come with a more realistic approach.

Nevertheless, the article did not use resistance. They increased the dynamic viscosity somehow. Probably they had an expression for the dynamic viscosity as function of coordinate Z. Not sure if that is allowed in CFX.
(BTW, I don't believe the low Reynolds numbers given the huge dimensions).


Alternatively, create a additional volume next to the outlet, define a subdomain there with a high resistance (with streamwise coefficients?). But I already mentioned that above. Be carefull, it will increase the pressure which will affect density.


ghorrocks December 2, 2019 16:17

I think you will find your proposed methods of stopping swirl create more problems than is present when you just model the device with swirl. So I would recommend modelling the device as is, with no special treatment, and see if you have any problems - if not then forget about stopping the swirl.

To be more specific: When you stop the swirl through Bernoulli's equation you will increase the pressure. This will then change the pressure drop through the device and change the entire flow field. You can't stop the swirl without affecting the device.

If the actual device has something in it to stop the swirl then your model should include those devices. If the actual device does not have anything to stop the swirl then that is how you should model it, and let the swirl go right through the device.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:19.