CFD Online Logo CFD Online URL
www.cfd-online.com
[Sponsors]
Home > Forums > Software User Forums > FloEFD, FloWorks & FloTHERM

Flotherm vs FloEFD

Register Blogs Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old   December 4, 2017, 01:05
Default Flotherm vs FloEFD
  #1
New Member
 
Kurt
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 2
Flo-simulation is on a distinguished road
Hello everybody

I would be grateful if anybody could clarify to me. I want know that different of Flotherm and FloEFD.

1. Is it OK? Use the FloEFD?

Test sample is semiconductor power module or set(include fluent analysis). Main analysis is thermal.

2. I know that merit of Flotherm is interlocks with T3ster & Fast speed. Is it right?

That's all

I don't speak English well, thank you for asking question.

Please, reply.
Flo-simulation is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 6, 2017, 17:24
Default
  #2
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 41
Rep Power: 8
CFDfan is on a distinguished road
use FloEFD, in my opinion Flotherm doesn't have much future and will eventually die.
CFDfan is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 6, 2017, 19:23
Default
  #3
New Member
 
Kurt
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 2
Flo-simulation is on a distinguished road
thank you for your opinion CFDfan. I think you know the FloEFD well. So could you answer my question?



1. Why think about Flotherm wil die?



2. Is it possible to accurately simulate epoxy molding with FloFED?

I worried about what to pruchase flotherm and floefd.

I look forward your reply. thanks & regard.
Flo-simulation is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 8, 2017, 08:43
Default
  #4
Member
 
Gabriel Ciobanu
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 46
Rep Power: 8
Gabriel_C is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFDfan View Post
use FloEFD, in my opinion Flotherm doesn't have much future and will eventually die.
thank you for the inside info....now I have to run and learn FloEFD.
Gabriel_C is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 8, 2017, 08:45
Default
  #5
Member
 
Gabriel Ciobanu
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 46
Rep Power: 8
Gabriel_C is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo-simulation View Post
Hello everybody

I would be grateful if anybody could clarify to me. I want know that different of Flotherm and FloEFD.

1. Is it OK? Use the FloEFD?

Test sample is semiconductor power module or set(include fluent analysis). Main analysis is thermal.

2. I know that merit of Flotherm is interlocks with T3ster & Fast speed. Is it right?

That's all

I don't speak English well, thank you for asking question.

Please, reply.
Hi, try reading this post:
Flotherm vs Flotherm XT vs FloEFD

Best regards, Gabriel
Gabriel_C is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 9, 2017, 04:47
Default
  #6
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 41
Rep Power: 8
CFDfan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flo-simulation View Post
thank you for your opinion CFDfan. I think you know the FloEFD well. So could you answer my question?



1. Why think about Flotherm wil die?



2. Is it possible to accurately simulate epoxy molding with FloFED?

I worried about what to pruchase flotherm and floefd.

I look forward your reply. thanks & regard.
1. I don't know if Floefd can simulate epoxy molding (I just don't know what is involved there), but Boris, if he reads this email, will most probably answer you.

2. Flotherm, in my opinion will slowly die, because 3-4 years ago Mentor Graphics (being then the owner of Flotherm and Floefd) released a program called FlothermXT. It was done I suppose to overcome the drawbacks of the outdated Flotherm and combine the best features of Flotherm and Floefd. It turned out that the solver and the mesher in this hybrid program, i.e the heart and the head in any CFD code, were taken from Floefd.
CFDfan is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 13, 2017, 12:53
Default
  #7
Senior Member
 
Boris Marovic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 504
Rep Power: 16
Boris_M will become famous soon enough
Hi everyone,

Sorry, I've been so busy lately with our FloEFD conference as well as with traveling.

No, FloTHERM will not die. There is a clear difference between FloEFD and FloTHERM.
Sure, both are CFD codes and even if FloEFD would have all the capabilities of FloTHERM, the typical user is still different plus the speed of FloTHERM especially for cartesian conform geometry such as server racks or PCBs with chips etc. Most of those parts and assemblies are square shaped but even curved geometry can be handled. FloEFD is simple the CAD embedded CFD solution for the CAD engineers which most FloTHERM users are not. There are a huge amount of companies using FloTHERM for such applications where they either don't want to use a CAD system as you don't design chips or PCBs in a MCAD system.

1. Yes, FloEFD can be used for power module simulations. You will need to model the module as a 3D geometry just like in FloTHERM and apply the corresponding materials.

2. Yes, FloTHERM is very fast as it does not have so many solver capabilities that can slow it down as well as the SmartCells which enable the whole use of complex shaped geometry with an automated meshing and accuracy. FloTHERM XT is a little skimmed down FloEFD solver in terms of capabilities as you don't need cavitation or hypersonic in electronics cooling and therefore a little faster I think as FloEFD, but I have no exact numbers as I never compared them one by one. In about a month there will be more news on FloEFD.

3. It depends on what you mean by epoxy molding? Do you mean the filling of the epoxy over a chip or part of a PCB to cover a chip in an epoxy protecting cover?
FloEFD can simulate the thermal behavior of an epoxy mold such as the heat conducted through it away from the chip into the environment or other parts of the assembly. But FloEFD can also model the injection filling of an epoxy mold and how it flows around the chip for example. V17 comes with free surface capability and for the epoxy flow you would need the Advanced module as it is a non-newtonian flow into an air cavity. Other fluids in free surface can be modeled with the basic FloEFD version, just the non-newtonian fluid requires the advanced module.

So, in the end, it depends on your preference as well as if the tool meets your requirements in terms of features or usability.
If you are working within Creo, Catia, NX or Solid Edge 90% of your time just the application is some electronics device then most likely FloEFD is the better solution for you. You are already familiar with the CAD and can leverage the parametric in optimization studies and an IGBT etc. are mostly just a heat source anyway, so no detailed PCB traces of more detailed chip modeling, although FloEFD with the EDA bridge can do that also pretty good.
It is best to test both and see how you like the workflow and how they fit into your processes and of course, you can also compare speed and accuracy. But consider every aspect of it. So if you measure speed, then also measure the time you need to create the model, setup the simulation, mesh the model, solve it and post process it. Sometimes the model creation might take longer than the solving difference is for example.
This, in general, should be considered in any CFD code comparison. Whatever you buy, it should suit YOUR needs not the one of the sales person or because someone else says so. You have to work with it in future, day in and day out, and need to be able to use it efficiently.

Hope this helps,
Boris
Boris_M is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 14, 2017, 04:35
Default
  #8
New Member
 
Kurt
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 2
Flo-simulation is on a distinguished road
Thank you. I look forward to your reply. I think that you must be an export.
After read your reply, I can select which simulation to use.

So I have 2 question again.

1. As you say I want see the mold flow that how the mold is filled in the cavity.
But our agent say that It is difficult to get the correct data because FloEFD can not put density or viscosity of mold in floEFD. Is it right??

2. What accessories in FloEFD should I purchase to enable mold flow simulations?

Thank you and look forward reply.
Flo-simulation is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 14, 2017, 05:21
Default
  #9
Senior Member
 
Boris Marovic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 504
Rep Power: 16
Boris_M will become famous soon enough
Hi Kurt,

Thank you, yes, I've been using FloEFD for over 10 years now.
Basically correct. It depends on what you want to simulate and which product fits you and your processes best. So FloTHERM and FloTHERM XT are electronics cooling products and cannot do free surface flow of filling a cavity but FloEFD can do that.

So regarding you two questions:

1. Yes, FloEFD can do the mold filling. Its free surface capabilities are working with 2 fluids (air - water, water - oil, air - non-newtonian). The fluids can be entered with all the usual properties for FloEFD fluids (Liquids: density, viscosity, specific heat, thermal conductivity and non-newtonian fluids: density, specific heat, thermal conductivity and multiple models for the viscosity such as Power-law, Herschel-Bulkley, Carreau, Cross-WLF, Second order and viscosity table). So I think more than enough data to provide a detailed material model.
Of course, you will need to have that material property but if you don't have that then often other tools won't be able to help you with that either. Some laboratories can help you to measure the non-newtonian properties in case you don't have them and don't have such capabilities to measure them.

2. For epoxy mold injection you will need the free surface for non-newtonian fluids and that is in the Advanced Module of FloEFD. An add-on module to the basic FloEFD version for your preferred CAD system.
So you will need your CAD integration of FloEFD plus the Advanced Module.


Don't trust agencies, trust the software vendor. Some external company does not know what the software is capable. A distributor might not be 100% up to speed with the latest features but they usually check with the vendor directly to clarify if that is possible. But the mentioned information from your agency does not seem to come from someone who knows FloEFD as this is basic knowledge for any application engineer using FloEFD.
I agree that non-newtonian material properties, especially for the viscosity, are not so easy to get as they are temperature dependent and not as commonly provided by the fluid vendor like for example oil or any Newtonian liquid such as water where you can find it in handbooks. For non-newtonian fluids, you usually need to conduct rheology measurements to determine the viscosity and it changes depending on the mixture of the material and temperature and the shear rate.

Hope this helps,
Boris
Boris_M is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 14, 2017, 20:23
Default
  #10
New Member
 
Kurt
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 2
Flo-simulation is on a distinguished road
Thank you very much your quick reply too.



The purpose of the simulation is to simulate thermal analysis of IPM for a semiconductor module. If possible, I would like to see the mold flow of IPM.


So thanks to boris it became clear which accessary to put in. We decided to buy FloEFD.



Thank you again and I would appreciate your reply.



Be careful not to catch a cold.

Kurt
Flo-simulation is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   December 15, 2017, 04:00
Default
  #11
Senior Member
 
Boris Marovic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 504
Rep Power: 16
Boris_M will become famous soon enough
Hi Kurt,

happy to help. I might not always find the time to look into the forum but there are some people here like CFDfan and Gabriel_C that post here as well every now and then. Otherwise, shoot me a PM to get my attention.
Once you are under support with Mentor, their support team is happy to help with any questions you might have.

Happy holidays,
Boris
Boris_M is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Tags
flotherm;floefd;

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flotherm vs Flotherm XT vs FloEFD zdunol FloEFD, FloWorks & FloTHERM 17 December 16, 2016 10:47
FloEFD for axial and radial blower CmdrFALCO FloEFD, FloWorks & FloTHERM 3 September 9, 2015 02:31
Fluent Vs Solid-works Flow Simulation Mortezab Main CFD Forum 16 July 5, 2013 02:47
FloEFD and FloTHERM Blogs @ Mentor.com RobinB FloEFD, FloWorks & FloTHERM 0 July 17, 2009 15:59
Flotherm-Icepak comparison for electronic cooling Masoud Ameli FLUENT 0 February 28, 2005 10:00


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 18:36.