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Mingyong December 20, 2000 16:37

CFD job and salary?
Hi, everyone: Merry Christmas! I want to find a job which will utilize my CFD background and also need computer skills such as c, c++, unix. What knid of CFD job should I look for? Any suggestion will be appreciated.


John C. Chien December 20, 2000 23:51

Re: CFD job and salary?
(1). You can visit the job listing of this forum to see the types of job available. (2). CFD skill and programming skill can be used in engineering field and IT field. So, you will have to make your own decision as to what you are going to do when such jobs is available to you.

rakib December 24, 2000 13:45

Re: CFD job and salary?
As a fresh MS graduate in Chemical Engineering and a user of FLUENT for my Thesis, what kind of jobs can I expect? To what extent does my one year rigorous experince in using the CFD software count towards the experience for by potential employers? Any comment is welcome.

John C. Chien December 25, 2000 00:24

Re: CFD job and salary?
(1). First of, using a software such as Fluent might be very useful when applying a job at Fluent company, because they can save some training time on you. (2). But even in that case, if it is a sales position, then the main job function is to bring in more business, such as getting more customers to use the products. (3). And if it is a technical support engineer position, then your experience and background in chemical engineering will be useful in helping users in chemical industries. (4). so, it is quite obvious that the vendor of the code will be a good place to appreciate your experience. (5). And obviously, if the company you are interested in, is not using the Fluent code, then you will have to learn something new (different codes if required). But since you already have some experience with a commercial code, the process to learn how to use another code would be relatively straight forward for you. So, this should cover the industries using other types of code. (6). That's about all I can say. Ideally, if you have used the code to solve a very important design problem, and if the company is also looking someone to solve the same problem with the same code, then there will be a perfect match. But this is common sense, everybody can come up with the same conclusion. (7).I think, it depends on what you are trying to do in your future, and what the company is looking for from you.

Ray Cosner December 26, 2000 19:55

Re: CFD job and salary?
From my perspective, an MS degree with CFD experience is the minimum qualification. So, your qualifications mean I would consider your resume - but it is not enought to give you a special advantage. An MS degree is very common in CFD.

The next things I would want to see in a hiring decision would be either (1) good understanding of physical fluid dynamics, or (2) good understanding or relevant mathematics (analytical geometry, matrix methods, eigenvalues, etc). The most important factor, however, would be your personal level of interest in doing the kind of work we perform.

Raymond R. Cosner CFD Program Manager The Boeing Company

rakib December 28, 2000 12:04

Re: CFD job and salary?
Well, I have a good academic background. My transcripts will speak for my level of understanding fluid dynamics and heat transfer. I have used FLUENT for my MS Thesis. But when it comes to jobhunt, most employers ask for experience. Isn't a year personal research (that's how an MS thesis is) a good exposure/experience in CFD? Any good engineer, more so with a fresh Masters Student has a good understanding of the relevant mathematics (analytical geometry, matrix methods, eigenvalues, etc). Of course I am in the beginning of the jobhunt, optimistic about the opportunities, but I want to assess myself regarding how experienced persons view my aptitude. Just to mention, I am an Indian national, just having wrapped up my MS thesis from "King Fahd University of Petroleum & Minerals", Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and now looking for a job with a dynamic organization in a promising and more specifically in a field of my interest like Computational Fluid Dynamics, in which I am already a party.

John C. Chien December 28, 2000 13:41

Re: CFD job and salary?
(1). I think, the matching of your training with the potential employer's need is one important factor in looking for a job. (2). Besides that, since CFD has been and will remain to be a research field, the job opening in this field is likely to be relatively few, because most companies don't even have CFD related departments. Based on my observation, many engineering companies with over 50 years or over 100 years old history still do not have any CFD related departments. All they have are some licenses of commercial CFD codes on their workstations, a week of training at most, and a lot of engineers trying out the codes on their own, hoping to be the next expert in CFD. (3). So, the engineering companies are not prepared for CFD today, they are only interested in saving the cost to increase the profit.(to improve the stock price) As I have said, if a company is looking for the skill you have with the commercial CFD code to solve a particular problem which you have just solved in your MS thesis, then the chance of getting that job is relatively high. (4). I think, the CFD market itself is still not there, and all we are seeing is "cheap labor in running some available codes". Therefore, if a person in an engineering company with a BS degree, has been running a commercial code for the last two years when you are studying your MS degree, he will have more experience than you, and the company is unlikely to replace him with you, unless the company is expanding and unable to train the current engineers to use the code in time.(a week of training is all that's required in using a commercial code.) The company does not care because companies change hand everyday. If you can eliminate the competition , then you can make money easier. The principle is used throughout the industries, including the CFD commercial code industries. If an engineer with 10 years experience has started running CFD codes for two years, then it is going to be difficult for you to compete with him. (unless your labor cost is much lower than his)(5). What I am trying to say is: there is no CFD market, but there are a lot of engineers running some commercial codes. We used to have a secretary for a couple of groups of department (total les than 20 engineers), now most engineers are using PC to write their reports or project so that a secretary today must serve a group of 60 engineers. (6). When everyone in a company is using PC to write a report, and commercial CFD codes to do analysis, then the end result is there is no need to have a good secretary, or a CFD engineer with advanced degree. You can say that the quality of the company will suffer from this non-professional approach. But in reality, these companies are more concerned about their stock price than the need to have a well-trained engineer. (7). I can only say that the only way to survive in the future is to invest in research field such as CFD. Today, get any job you can find, and come here to stay in CFD field. Even for a teaching job, you can't only teach CFD courses. (8). Do you think that Boeing acquired MD because Boeing had a big expansion plan for the CFD department in MD? (The answer is, unlikely, because you are seeing their manager answering questions here, while you are not seeing their job posting in the job listing section.)

Ray Cosner December 29, 2000 16:52

Re: CFD job and salary?
The point I was trying to make is, nearly everyone has an MS degree (or more), therefore the level of experience you have is common with a large number of job applicants.

John C. Chien December 29, 2000 23:27

Re: CFD job and salary?
(1). I think, Bill Gates was a very lucky person. (2). He didn't have a MSME, not even a BSME. He didn't have to worry about other applicants. (3). And if Chinese engineers start running a CFD code, there will be millions of applicants. (4). Would you hire Bill Gates, if his resume is in the applicant list? Would you hire me, if I send you my resume? I think, most of the good CFD experts have left the defense industries long time ago. And I don't think, people currently working for the defense industries know what they are doing. (5). I would give anybody a chance of one year to try out, before I could say the person with a MSME is under-educated or without experience. As I have said several times before, most of the time, the cfd results we obtained are wrong. So, in order to get the one percent chance of the correct answer, a CFD department must be 99 times over-size. It is quite possible that with the population of India or China, they will be able to get the correct answers much faster than any other western countries. (6). My feeling is that, you are really not in the CFD business at all. So, do you think that you have a job for me?

Ray Cosner December 30, 2000 04:08

Re: CFD job and salary?
Bill Gates lacked formal academic training, but he had vision, ability, and his timing was great. I will offer the opinion that anyone can succeed in any field without formal training if they have a fortunate combination of vision, ability, and timing.

In industrial CFD application, we cannot conceivably afford a 99% failure rate. Design programs are depending on getting data upon which they can rely, without the delay and expense of a trial-and-error process.

When we're talking about professional employment, there is not the opportunity to give anyone a year to see if it works out. You choose people carefully, knowing that's the most important decision you make, and then you support your people once you've chosen them.

If you were seriously asking me about the possibility of employment, then contact me off this list and give me your c.v.

John C. Chien December 30, 2000 04:39

Re: CFD job and salary?
(1). It is encouraging. (2). I'll send a copy of my resume to your e-mail address. (3). I won't be discussing about it here, since it is pure personal issue.

Bart Prast January 2, 2001 07:15

Re: CFD job and salary?
Which still leaves the issue of salary. Now we have somebody from HRM from Boeing: What makes a typical starter in the CFD department of Boeing (relevant PhD, some years experience in a commercial environment)?

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