
[Sponsors] 
April 14, 2011, 09:02 
Center of Pressure for an Aero Body

#1 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
Hi Everyone!
Does a center of pressure(CP) utility exist in OpenFOAM? I have not been able to find anything. Secondly, does anyone know how to manipulate the fields in order to determine CP as a post processing activity. I tried using the moments and forces generated using the forces utility to find CP, however, the calculated positions are not located anywhere on my body. Without CP, the calculated forces are useless when it comes to structural stress calcs. Thanks for your time! Greg 

April 24, 2011, 15:13 

#2 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
Ok this is how the centre of pressure coordinates (x,y,z) are related to a 3D body.
Mx=Fy*z+Fz*y My=Fx*zFz*x Mz=Fx*y+Fy*x Simple enough  3 equations and 3 unknowns. Can someone tell me why using the moments and forces calculated using the Forces utility produces x,y,z values that aren't located anywhere close to the body (wall patch)? Where is the error being introduced? Both the moments and forces are calculated using the shear stress and pressure on the body. Can someone pppplease chime in? Thanks! Last edited by Greg Givogue; April 27, 2011 at 20:07. Reason: corrected signs in equations 

April 24, 2011, 15:54 

#3 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
Interesting finding:
The forces utility gives the following result for pressure forces on the body 431.2195 7.0978491 364.73453 If I use patchIntegrate command on the body I get the following force; 352.01592 5.7941609 297.74247 This result was confirmed using the Forces and Moments tool in Tecplot 360. The moments were also significantly less than those calculated in OF. ...why the difference with OF? Last edited by Greg Givogue; April 24, 2011 at 17:00. 

April 24, 2011, 18:37 

#4 
Member
José
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 73
Rep Power: 8 
Hi Greg,
In order to get Cp with Paraview, go to the following post! I hope it helps! If you discover anything new for the moment coefficeint, please keep me posted! Regards, José 

April 24, 2011, 21:21 

#5 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
Thanks for the suggestion but that is for coefficient of pressure and not center of pressure. Center of pressure(CP) is bit more involved because it involves the position of each cell (x) on the surface.
CP = Integral (x * P dA)/Integral(P dA) or discretely as Sum (xi *Pi *Ai)/Sum (Pi*Ai) I can calculate CP but I can't get coordinates x y z for CP that actually lie on the surface of the body. I'm also not sure why there's a difference between the forces utility and patchIntegrate results... Thanks again! 

April 25, 2011, 04:53 

#6 
Member
José
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 73
Rep Power: 8 
Of course! I misunderstood CP and Cp...


April 27, 2011, 08:18 

#7 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
No problem.


April 27, 2011, 08:19 

#8 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
Ok, I've added a few lines in Forces.C to calculate CP, however, I'm not sure what needs to be done to the Forces.H file. How do I define the variable 'CP' in the .H file?
Here's what I've added to the Forces.C; if (log_) { Info<< "forces output:" << nl << " forces(pressure, viscous)" << fm.first() << nl << " moment(pressure, viscous)" << fm.second() << nl << " centre of pressure (total)" << CP << nl << endl; } .... fm.first().second() += sum(vf); // sum of viscous forces fm.second().second() += sum(Md ^ vf); // sum of cross products of position vector and viscous forces = viscous moments vector CP = sum(Md^(vf+pf))/sum(vf+pf); // centre of pressure When I run wmake I get the following error; ... forces/forces.C:469: warning: unused variable ‘CP’ make: *** [Make/linux64GccDPOpt/forces.o] Error 1 I'd appreciate any suggestions! In the end I just want to know where the resultant force is acting on the body. Thanks, Greg Update: This isn't a valid approach since I'm essentially dividing a vector by a vector. Last edited by Greg Givogue; May 8, 2011 at 23:19. Reason: update 

April 28, 2011, 23:39 

#9 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
The reason why the pressure force found using patchIntegrate and the forces utility are different is because the fluid density was set to 1.225 in the forces utility while the patchIntegrate used a density of 1.


May 8, 2011, 23:17 

#10 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
Mx=Fy*z+Fz*y
My=Fx*zFz*x Mz=Fx*y+Fy*x It turns out that the above equations in matrix form reveal that they are singular (i.e., one or more equations are not independent). inv(A) does not exist and det A = 0. Is there another equation that I could use to augment them? Does anyone know another way of solving this problem? How do other codes solve it? Thanks 

May 25, 2011, 02:32 

#11 
Member
Scott
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 41
Rep Power: 10 
Hi Greg,
Not sure if this will help, but you can extract the pressure values for each cell on the surface in their normal components by following the steps below in Paraview. Extract Surfaces Generate Surface Normals Use the calculator to multiply pressure by the surface normals (Normals*p) This then prints the values in the data tab at the right in three columns, one for each normal direction. I then integrate these to get total forces on the area using Integrate Variables, BUT... In the calculator though there will be options to calculate the normals multiplied by pressure individually in the three components, which you can then use in your equation to specify the centre of pressure. If you get this working please let us know the next couple of steps. I'm short of time otherwise I'd try it myself. Hope this helps! Scott 

June 2, 2011, 19:29 

#12 
Member
Scott
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 41
Rep Power: 10 
Hi Greg and all,
Any luck getting this to work? If so, please let me know how. Cheers, Scott 

July 15, 2011, 10:39 

#13  
New Member
WangJianliang
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 9 
yes, I have noticed this equations set are not inconsistent sets too.
the rank of coeffcient is 2 and this matrix is asymmetric in Fluent help , it only use two equations on one time but need the user given the third coordinate So I think how to find a point that the moment is zero in 3D or is this point exist Givgue , do you find a solutin let me known hustwjl@gmail.com Quote:


July 18, 2011, 22:10 

#14 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 

July 19, 2011, 02:15 

#15  
New Member
WangJianliang
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 9 
Thanks very much,I have read that post before.
and now I use a force and moment to equivalent the resultant force and the moment get from surface integral but how to choose a radius in FEM with the structural analysis, and use the force to form the moment is the problem, especially when in time this resultant force and moment change ,then the point change I want to use a fixed point and change the components of the force to equivalent to this Thanks again! Greg Givogue Quote:


July 19, 2011, 08:38 

#16 
Member
Greg Givogue
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ottawa Canada
Posts: 57
Rep Power: 9 
I'm not sure if I understand what you're trying to say. The moment arm (or radius as you call it?) is just r= CPDatum and then the moment = r x F.
What software are you using? I'm using OpenFOAM which produce total forces on a patch as well as Moments with respect to a datum that I select. 

Thread Tools  
Display Modes  


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Negative Pressure in fan modelling  Jenny  CFX  3  September 30, 2007 08:47 
Center of Pressure  Astrid  CFX  0  December 21, 2006 05:07 
Neumann pressure BC and velocity field  Antech  Main CFD Forum  0  April 25, 2006 02:15 
flow simulation across a small fan  jane luo  Main CFD Forum  15  April 12, 2004 17:49 
what the result is negatif pressure at inlet  chong chee nan  FLUENT  0  December 29, 2001 06:13 