
[Sponsors] 
June 20, 2007, 11:19 
Cuurently, the volumefraction

#1 
Member
SungEun Kim
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 76
Rep Power: 10 
Cuurently, the volumefraction equation in interFoam, for instance, uses an explicit solver. I was curious whether using an implicit solver would allow me to use larger timestep size. So, I tried to call MULES::implicitSolve01 instead of MULE::explicitSolve1 in gammaEqn.H. It seems to work. One thing I'm not sure about is one of the argument Dpsi of dimensionedScalar type. Looking at the MULE implementation, Dpsi of appears to be a diffusivity introduced as a stabulity measure for gamma equation. I set it to a small value, which seems to work.
Can someone comment on whether I'm doing things right, please? 

September 9, 2008, 07:42 
Hi all
I would like to rest

#2 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi all
I would like to restart this discussion. Is there anyone who has successfully implemented an implicit solver for the gamma equation? I tried the above approach but was not able to get it to work. Further, what is the argument behind the hardcoded "MULES::explicitSolve01" in the interFoamsolvers. I am currently using 1.4.1. Thank you for any help or suggestions. / Niels
__________________
Please note that I do not use the Friendfeature, so do not be offended, if I do not accept a request. 

September 9, 2008, 12:12 
MULES::implicitSolve works wit

#3 
Member
Patricio Bohorquez
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Jaén, Spain
Posts: 95
Rep Power: 10 
MULES::implicitSolve works with success in the solver interPhaseChangeFoam (OF1.5).
Following src/finiteVolume/fvMatrices/solvers/MULES/MULES.H it reads MULES:explicitSolve01(psi, phi, phiPsi) ask you for:  psi: actual value of the variable to be solved  phi: normal convective flux  psiPhi: actual explicit flux of the variable to solve. It is also used to return the limited flux of the bounded solution. Obviously, psi = gamma for interFoam. Then, phi = U·S, where U is the velocity vector and S is the normal to the cell surface times the cellsurface area. Its value comes from the PISOloop. Finally, psiPhi = gamma [U+(1gamma)U<sub>r,gamma</sub>]·S = gamma U<sub>gamma</sub>·S, where U<sub>r,gamma</sub> is the relative velocity of the water with respect to the air at the thick freesurface, and U<sub>gamma</sub> is the velocity of the gammaphase. Patricio 

September 10, 2008, 05:53 
Hi Patricio
Thanks for the

#4 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi Patricio
Thanks for the quick answer. I will download 1.5. and look into it. Best regards, Niels
__________________
Please note that I do not use the Friendfeature, so do not be offended, if I do not accept a request. 

September 12, 2008, 09:06 
Hi all
I have tried to find

#5 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi all
I have tried to find some documentation on the MULESprocedure, but on Web of Science I can only find references to the "animal"kind of MULES. Further in Henrik Ruches he describes what looks like the used procedure, but refer to a N_a_b_l_a Ltd technical note. Thus is is possible that H.G.Weller, Derivation, modelling and solution of the conditionally averaged twophase flow equations. Technical Report TR/HGW/02, N_a_b_l_a Ltd, 2002 could be made available? If anyone knows another source of documentation I would be happy to know about it. Best regards and a good weekend to all, Niels
__________________
Please note that I do not use the Friendfeature, so do not be offended, if I do not accept a request. 

September 12, 2008, 10:50 
MULES was invented by Henry la

#6 
Senior Member
Eugene de Villiers
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 725
Rep Power: 14 
MULES was invented by Henry last year (or was it 2006?) and nothing has ever been published, so you aren't likely to find any documentation about it.


September 13, 2008, 05:20 
Hi
@Eugene
Okay, I am s

#7 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi
@Eugene Okay, I am sorry to hear that, but there is of course nothing to do about it. @Other I have tried to shift to a MULES::implicitSolver in interFoam, but I keep running it problems with my fvSolution file. From the source "MULESImplicit" should be a subDict in the gammasolution file, thus I have added this to the file: gamma PBiCG { MULESImplicit { maxIter 1000; nLimiterIter 10; maxUnboundedness 1; CoCoeff 0.2; } preconditioner DILU; tolerance 1e06; relTol 0; }; thus even though I have added it as a subDict, I keep getting this error message: keyword MULESImplicit is undefined in dictionary "/home/ngj/OpenFOAM/ngj1.5/run/tutorials/interFoam/damBreak/system/fvSolution:: gamma" file: /home/ngj/OpenFOAM/ngj1.5/run/tutorials/interFoam/damBreak/system/fvSolution::g amma from line 47 to line 54. From function dictionary::subDict(const word& keyword) in file db/dictionary/dictionary.C at line 288. FOAM exiting Thus if any knows how to set the gammapart of fvSolution, then please help. Best regards, Niels P.S. For any, do not take the values in the subDict seriously, as I have not looked into the meaning behind those yet.
__________________
Please note that I do not use the Friendfeature, so do not be offended, if I do not accept a request. 

September 13, 2008, 07:16 
Hi Niels!
I am sorry that I

#8 
Member
Kevin Maki
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI, USA
Posts: 43
Rep Power: 10 
Hi Niels!
I am sorry that I can't help you with the MULESImplicit, but I find it strange that the MULESExplicit controls are read from the PISO dict, and the Implicit are from the gamma dict. Do you know why they would do that? Also, there is some mention on the gamma transport equation that FOAM uses in the thesis by Rusche (2002), sec 4.2.1. You will see that it references private communication with Weller for the details though. Have a great weekend! Kevin 

September 13, 2008, 08:31 
Hi Niels
I suppose that you

#9 
Member
Patricio Bohorquez
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Jaén, Spain
Posts: 95
Rep Power: 10 
Hi Niels
I suppose that you have replaced the files gamma* of interFoam with those from interPhaseChangeFoam, commented the lines related to Sp & Su in gammaEqn.H and call MULES::implicitSolve(oneField(), gamma, phi, phiGamma, zeroField(), zeroField(), 1, 0); (or similar) Then you must try this option instead of the one you proposed: gamma MULESImplicit { maxIter 1000; nLimiterIter 10; maxUnboundedness 1; CoCoeff 0.2; solver PBiCG { preconditioner DILU; tolerance 1e06; relTol 0; }; }; and add to fvSchemes the following line: div(rhoPhi,U) Gauss limitedLinearV 1; It works. Patricio 

September 13, 2008, 08:36 
Hi Niels
I suppose that you

#10 
Member
Patricio Bohorquez
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Jaén, Spain
Posts: 95
Rep Power: 10 
Hi Niels
I suppose that you have replaced the files gamma* of interFoam with those from interPhaseChangeFoam, commented the lines related to Sp & Su in gammaEqn.H and call MULES::implicitSolve(oneField(), gamma, phi, phiGamma, zeroField(), zeroField(), 1, 0); (or similar) Then you must try this option instead of the one you proposed: gamma MULESImplicit { maxIter 1000; nLimiterIter 10; maxUnboundedness 1; CoCoeff 0.2; solver PBiCG { preconditioner DILU; tolerance 1e06; relTol 0; }; }; and add to fvSchemes the following line: div(rhoPhi,U) Gauss limitedLinearV 1; It works. I have sent a message to your email with the files Patricio 

September 13, 2008, 11:59 
Hi Patricio
Yes, I have cha

#11 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi Patricio
Yes, I have changed the gamma* files, and I will get to work a.s.a.p. Again, thanks for your kind help. / Niels
__________________
Please note that I do not use the Friendfeature, so do not be offended, if I do not accept a request. 

September 14, 2008, 14:57 
Dear Niels,
i have been fol

#12 
Member
Christian Winkler
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Mannheim, Germany
Posts: 63
Rep Power: 10 
Dear Niels,
i have been following up this thread and tried the impicit version of interFoam myself. Out of curiosity: What do you try to achive by using an implicit formulation for the gamma equation? And do you succeed? Thing that spring to my mind:  stability > higher time steps  steady state solutions Could you comment on that please? Best regards Christian 

September 16, 2008, 08:30 
Hi Christian
Sorry for the

#13 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi Christian
Sorry for the wait, I am in the middle of a notcoorporating reinstall, so I will make it short. The actual goal was to consider if the implicit solver did give raise to a different exchange of energy between water and air. I, and I know others have the same problem, get large velocities in the air phase, significantly larger than the wave propagation speed. Due to reinstallation, I have not reached a conclusion, thus this is the closests I can get. Generally I have not experienced instability problems with waves, except if they break and I use a laminar solver, then the energy cannot be dissipated at a significantly large enough rate. Best regards, Niels
__________________
Please note that I do not use the Friendfeature, so do not be offended, if I do not accept a request. 

April 6, 2009, 10:42 

#14 
New Member
SJ
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4
Rep Power: 10 
can anyone tell me how the relative velocity is calculated???


June 29, 2009, 13:27 

#15 
Senior Member
isabel
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 171
Rep Power: 9 
I need to solve the gamma equation in interFoam. But I want to add a source as that:
d(gamma)/dt + div(U*gamma) + div(phigamma) = source How can I do this? Perhaps with this line: ? MULES:: implicitSolve(gamma,phi,phiGamma,source) 

June 30, 2009, 05:39 

#16 
Senior Member
Niels Gjoel Jacobsen
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Deltares, Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,733
Rep Power: 29 
Hi Isabel
Please look into the source in the folder: ~/OpenFOAM/src/finiteVolume/fvMatrix/solvers/MULES and you will be able to find out about the syntax. Best regards, Niels 

June 30, 2009, 07:54 

#17 
Senior Member
isabel
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 171
Rep Power: 9 
Thank you very much, ngj
The key is in MULESTemplates.C in these lines: fvScalarMatrix psiConvectionDiffusion ( fvm::ddt(rho, psi) + fv::gaussConvectionScheme<scalar>(mesh, phi, UDs).fvmDiv(phi, psi)  fvm::Sp(Sp, psi)  Su ); I think that the equation that it is solving is: d(rho*psi)/dt + div(phi*psi)  Sp*psi  Su = 0 Am I right? 

July 7, 2009, 04:29 

#18  
Senior Member
Sandy Lee
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 213
Rep Power: 11 
Quote:
Hi, it seems that you lost the compressible term: div(gamma*(1gamma)*phi). I guess the gamma equation should be as follows: d(rho*gamma)/dt + div(phi*gamma) + div(gamma*(1gamma)*phi)  Sp*gamma  Su = 0 In MULESTemplates.C, phiPsi = phiGamma = phi*gamma + gamma*(1gamma)*phi is it right? If that, in gammaEqu.H, why Su = divU*gamma + vDotcAlphal ? It look like that the term divU*gamma was repeatedly solved ?? I knew, to the gamma transport equation, Source term = vDotvAlphal * gamma + (1  gamma) * vDotcAlphal = (vDotvAlphal  vDotcAlphal) * gamma + vDotcAlphal. So, Sp = (vDotvAlphal  vDotcAlphal) * gamma , and it will be solved implicitly. Su = vDotcAlphal, and it is an explicit term in this equation. but again, why Su also includes the term divU*gamma in gammaEqu.H ? If the MULES::implicitSolver was chose, this term should be deleted, right? 

July 7, 2009, 13:28 

#19 
Senior Member
isabel
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 171
Rep Power: 9 
Thank you very much, sandy.
I have been studying the interPhaseChange solver carefully. As you say, in gammaEqn.H we define the variable phigamma: phigamma = phi*gamma + gamma*(1gamma)*phir Sp = vDotvAlphal – vDotcAlphal Su = div(U)*gamma + vDotcAlphal And then, when we execute MULES::explicitSolve(oneField(),gamma,phi,phiGamma ,Sp,Su,1,0); we associate: rho → oneField () psi → gamma phi → phi phiPsi → phigamma Sp → Sp Su → Su psiMax → 1 psiMin → 0 and then, the key is in this lines of MULESTemplates.C: fvScalarMatrix psiConvectionDiffusion ( fvm::ddt(rho, psi) + fv::gaussConvectionScheme<scalar>(mesh, phi, UDs).fvmDiv(phi, psi)  fvm::Sp(Sp, psi)  Su ); ...... solve ( psiConvectionDiffusion + fvc::div(lambda*phiCorr), MULEScontrols.lookup("solver") ); That I think that the equation is d(1*psi)/dt + div(phigamma) + Sp*gamma  Su = 0 I don't know what means this line: fv::gaussConvectionScheme<scalar>(mesh, phi, UDs).fvmDiv(phi, psi) but I think you are right, div(U) is repeated. I will ask for my advisors and I will confirmate. Do you know what these lines means? slicedSurfaceScalarField lambda ( IOobject ( "lambda", mesh.time().timeName(), mesh, IOobject::NO_READ, IOobject::NO_WRITE, false ), mesh, dimless, allLambda, false // Use slices for the couples ); 

July 7, 2009, 19:20 

#20 
Senior Member
Sandy Lee
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 213
Rep Power: 11 
but I think you are right, div(U) is repeated. I will ask for my advisors and I will confirmate.
Do you know what these lines means? slicedSurfaceScalarField lambda ( IOobject ( "lambda", mesh.time().timeName(), mesh, IOobject::NO_READ, IOobject::NO_WRITE, false ), mesh, dimless, allLambda, false // Use slices for the couples );[/QUOTE] ============================= Hi isabel, you have a great advisor, right? You are lucky. I think, in above code, lambda = allLambda, if you want know more informations about it, you can change the code as follows:  slicedSurfaceScalarField lambda ( IOobject ( "lambda", mesh.time().timeName(), mesh, IOobject::NO_READ, IOobject::AUTO_WRITE, false ), mesh, dimless, allLambda, false // Use slices for the couples );  Then, you can get an detailed output file in every iterative step about the "lambda" field. By the way, this kind of method can also help us to easily debug the codes in OF. But, now I still don't know what means this line: fv::gaussConvectionScheme<scalar>(mesh, phi, UDs).fvmDiv(phi, psi), and how to deal with the divU*gamma of Su ..... if you know them, please let me know too. Thanks. 

Thread Tools  
Display Modes  


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Euler Equation Implicit Upwind Schemes  felixrieper  OpenFOAM Running, Solving & CFD  1  February 9, 2014 01:58 
FEM pressure poisson equation (Implicit)  cfdbeginner  Main CFD Forum  0  August 9, 2005 13:32 
Compressive term in gamma equation  Ali (Ali)  OpenFOAM Running, Solving & CFD  0  February 17, 2005 18:19 
Implicit equation solving  Dr B.M. Smith (Smith)  OpenFOAM Running, Solving & CFD  2  December 10, 2004 06:36 
implicit solver  john  CDadapco  1  November 11, 2003 09:55 