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Old   October 11, 2009, 03:06
Default The FOAM Documentation Project - SHUT-DOWN
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Dear FOAMers,

I feel very sorry to announce that I have been forced by OpenCFD® Limited to shut-down the "The FOAM Documentation Project" and to take its website off-line.

I had to take this step because of the actions that OpenCFD® Limited has enforced against me in person (threat of a cease and desist letter), my university resp. my department (even though this was a private project) and the OpenFOAM® discussion forum (threats of post deletion).

Over weeks, I tried to resolve the issue by communicating with OpenCFD® Limited. However, I did not get a response to the pivotal question of "How do I describe and name a project that documents OpenFOAM® without using the word OpenFOAM®?" other than the recommendation to consult an attorney and to conform to their trademark policy. At this point, I realised that finding an agreement is becoming very difficult.

After having consulted with an attorney about all issues I changed the name of the project to "The FOAM Documentation Project" (including website, domain name, LaTex templates, logo), added a disclaimer and changed the description. I replaced the word "OpenFOAM®" by "FOAM", "FOAM technology" and "FOAM technology covering its two distributions OpenFOAM® and OpenFOAM-dev" wherever this was practicable. However, OpenCFD® Limited's position is that the use of the word "FOAM" is prohibited under clause 11 of their trademark policy ("abbreviation of the name") and threatened me with the issue of a cease and desist letter.

I do not know what else to change, facing a financial loss, having troubles with my university and being completely baffled about OpenCFD®'s response to community contribution to OpenFOAM® - In short, I do not see any other way than to give up and shut-down the project in order to prevent further damage.

However, if you do or have any idea, please help!!! I am open for any discussion, hint or tip.

best regards,
Holger Marschall


Please note:
OpenFOAM® is a registered trademark of OpenCFD® Ltd. The FDP and this communication are not approved or endorsed by OpenCFD® Limited, the producer of the OpenFOAM® software and owner of the OpenFOAM® and OpenCFD® trademarks.
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Old   October 11, 2009, 06:48
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I can also only say that i am equally baffled about OpenCFD's decision on this.

You/we are only trying to help in making OpenFOAM® more widespread and available to others.

I really don't see why making extra documentation to be such a big problem, as i see it, it is a win-win situation for OpenCFD®. Better documentation means more users and more users lead to more support contracts, as they are much cheaper than their commercial counterparts.

Until we get an official statement from OpenCFD® I will continue to be confused

As for ideas to continue the documentation effort I have none until I understand OpenCFD's® motive on the matter.
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Old   October 11, 2009, 16:52
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I'm tired of OpenCFD(r) and their trademark policy. They are more restrictive than commercial codes, which would consider this initiative as pubblicity, and not as something harmful. I'm overly annoyed by the arrogance they put in their answers and the unfairness of the statements they made.

I was ensured by Henry at OpenCFD that they (OpenCFD and Holger) would have reiterated the discussion until all parties were satisfied. When Holger contacted them to review the changes he made, he received a reply from Chris of OpenCFD stating he would have not gone through that.

OpenCFD trademark policy is not clear, incomplete and they do not want to find a solution to the problem they think still exists at this point. I had some hope after privately contacting them, but at this point I think it is time to move on.

I have not the time, the knowledge and the resources what I am going to suggest, but I really feel it is time to fork the project to get rid off of this kind of problems, creating a really open project and start from scratch there. It will be a mess at the beginning, it will fragment the community and it will harm the project itself, I am well aware of this, and this is the reason why I did not suggest this in public before, even if I thought to that for a while.

To conclude, OpenCFD fails to realize a simple point: many users already look at OpenFOAM-dev when they want OpenFOAM, thanks to the huge and amazing work done there by Hrvoje adding more functionality and advanced features.
I really completely fail to see what is the point OpenCFD is trying to make acting in this way, since they could have simply accepted but not supported the project, and enjoyed the benefits of including the documents created in their official distribution (as it was proposed by Holger in the first place).

Best,
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Old   October 11, 2009, 21:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linnemann View Post
I can also only say that i am equally baffled about OpenCFD's decision on this.

You/we are only trying to help in making OpenFOAM® more widespread and available to others.
That's exactly my point too. OpenCFD perceives the project as a problem, since it could be an obstacle to obtain sponsorship to document OpenFOAM(r). I frankly do not see who would pay to document OpenFOAM. In my opinion, at best, they can write the documentation and then sell it, but a sponsored documentation project is far from what I consider feasible. Who would pay for something like that? Were there offers or at least proposals? I asked this, and I got only vague replies.

Quote:
Until we get an official statement from OpenCFD® I will continue to be confused
I do not expect any public statement from them, but I hope to be wrong. They always developed the code behind close doors, claiming it is required to ensure quality at professional level. They do not provide a roadmap, do not accept contribution if not stripping the authorship from the code and requiring copyright transfer (They claim it is a requirement of the GPL, I fail to see this too, since many open project do not require this. One example: the linux kernel).

Quote:
As for ideas to continue the documentation effort I have none until I understand OpenCFD's® motive on the matter.
Well, we need to find a way, and the are different possibilities. The most radical was suggested before. The second one is to rename the documentation project again to another fantasy name, I can think to "notSoOpenCFDCode" just to make some fun of this annoying situation, and do not refer explicitly to OpenFOAM. I frankly think the first approach (a fork and complete rebrading, once for all) is a radical, painful, but necessary step to try to build a community. Of course OpenCFD could go back on its steps, but I have serious doubts it will at this point.

Best,
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Old   October 12, 2009, 11:16
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Dear Foamers,

I agree with the comments of Alberto.

I also fail to see why OpenCFD is being so restrictive. In one hand, they are using the work of many people that is developing the code, expecting that a cooperative work will helps us all. On the other hand, they are limiting the access to it by controlling the release of specific materials, like manuals, that will improve and greatly promote the usage of the code.

Maybe the decision was made by some MBA Management Geniuses, like George W. Bush, that failed to see the true spirit of OpenSource code.

Regards,

António Martins
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Old   October 12, 2009, 12:52
Default hmm.. time to move on to OpenFOAM-dev now!
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can someone give me the resource link to the OpenFOAM-dev version of the project?

I have realised in last few months that the support for the OpenFoam project is getting worse now. There are still many bugs in the newer version and there s no prompt response from people regarding this.
Being a free user and a loyal one, I would like to support the cause which encourage the free use of openfoam.

regards,

Nishant
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Old   October 12, 2009, 12:58
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Old   October 12, 2009, 13:10
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You find the instructions on how to build it here

http://openfoamwiki.net/index.php/Ho...M_the_easy_way

Best,
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Old   October 12, 2009, 14:58
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What about switching the documentation effort to freefoam which should be a OpenFOAM(R) fork.
The aim of the project are explained in the main page.
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Old   October 12, 2009, 16:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alberto View Post
The second one is to rename the documentation project again to another fantasy name, I can think to "notSoOpenCFDCode" just to make some fun of this annoying situation, and do not refer explicitly to OpenFOAM.
Best,
Let's call Him-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named "Voldemort".
voldemort-documentation.org is available.
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Old   October 12, 2009, 16:09
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The attitude of OpenCFD surprises me and saddens me in fact ...

I'm not certain that this protectionism helps them at this moment when the community begins to grow and get organized in a very structured way.

By this attitude and by closing the access to the information (this way) they can certainly lose the potential of a very large community of users. Do they really realize it ? I hope no because it is still the time to make a sign in the right direction and to open a constructive dialogue between all the parts so that EACH will gains at it.

As a user and as many others I would like to see OpenCFD express themselves on this point to know what strategy to adopt afterward: to continue as a teacher to promote this code with the students and the industrials or on the contrary to build with the others a more "opened" project.

To reach these extremes would be, I think, really regrettable for ALL ... while we ALL have on the contrary something to gain ...

Perhaps we can think on which bases an agreement could be found ? To me, we (OpenCFD and the OpenFOAM users) are all pointing in the same direction. Don't forget that the users community is the blood of a software ...

I call up to the intelligence and the willingness of all to find an intelligent solution to this incomprehension.

Regards
François

PS: sorry for my so bad English it's really terrible
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Old   October 12, 2009, 16:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xwang View Post
What about switching the documentation effort to freefoam which should be a OpenFOAM(R) fork.
The aim of the project are explained in the main page.
Xwang
Hi Xwang,

I do not want to put others (i.e. the FreeFOAM Project) as a target, since FreeFOAM could still be seen as a trademark infringement, since the substitutive use of the name "OpenFOAM®" could possibly confuse customers. In general, it's the main intention of registering a trademark to avoid confusion to customers and to prevent defaming or harmfull use of the name of a "goods and service" the trademark owner wants to trade with.

But having a right to something (in this case having the right to the name "OpenFOAM®") IMHO always involves having the choice of enforcing that right. I still do not see any understandable motive or sense in their acting against a project that was about the _documentation_ of OpenFOAM®??

Unfortunately a solution seems in very far distance. I tried exactly the same as you proposed with FreeFOAM using the wording "FOAM"; but OpenCFD® Limited complained again and started to severly threaten. I feel very sad about this being the result. However, I am still open for any discussion on possible solutions... :\

best regards,
Holger Marschall
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Old   October 12, 2009, 17:06
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I think it would have the same problem of "FOAM". I fear that whatever name containing the word "foam" would be considered not respectful of the trademark policy, so if this measure has to be taken, I would like to see a radical change, to stay away from further problems.

I discussed the topic quickly with the Free Software Foundation on their IRC channel, and, even if it is not an official statement clearly, it seems what OpenCFD is doing is formally acceptable by FSF, and the only solution is to rename the project and document the renamed one.

I would like to hear some more comments from community members who are following this thread. It would be much more useful to discuss this in the open, instead than behind the scenes.
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Old   October 12, 2009, 18:03
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What consequences does this have for those that use openfoam for their work? If people publish stuff which has used openfoam in some way or write about it in their thesis, can opencfd force it to be removed? I'm very confused by this.
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Old   October 12, 2009, 19:34
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No, at least for scientific papers. Simply cite them as you would cite other commercial codes, referring to their user's guide and/or programmer's guide.
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Old   October 13, 2009, 01:55
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Hi

what if we don't base the documentation on OpenFOAM?

I mean still use the documentation effort but not let it be limited to OpenFOAM, but opensource/free CFD in general.

OpenFOAM and code-saturne are two of the larger opensource/free CFD packages.

Then simply name the site www.free-CFD-doc.org or something, I know that OpenCFD don't have any copyright on the word free, CFD and doc so we should be in the home stretch here.

The documentation/tutorials can then be split up for the different packages and base the documentation on the individual solvers/libraries for the packages, like a collection of scientific papers.

Just an idea
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Old   October 13, 2009, 04:27
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First thanks to Prof.Holger Marschall for his efforts to get OpenFoam(R) documented!

There are already some solution in this thread about avoiding the collision of a documentation with the trademark policies of OpenCFD(R). But in my opinion this is not and will not the only annoyance: Alberto mentioned already some more! What about all those features implemented in the OpenFOAM-dev version, e.g. surface tracking, ggi, GAMG, BiCGstab? Some of them exist since OF-1.4.1 and so many users don't even know that they exist. If they never gonna make it in the "official release"? Probably not because they are from the wrong authors.

I go with the suggestion of Alberto about forking it, allthough this is quite a step and needs a lot of will and power. But this step should be made tight! It should be really open under no ones strange trademark policies, e.g. not that the new MOAFnepO will be registered again by someone else and it all starts over again. Maybe some kind of consortium of universities, contributers, users .. should be founded.

Jens

PS: I have deep respect to the original and all other developers and there work. I also respect that those peoble make a living out of their work. And I think OpenFOAM was/is? a realy great piece of work. But with this restrictions this might be the end of the "closed" OpenFOAM(R)!?

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Old   October 13, 2009, 05:05
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I believe it is a bad idea to segment the open source community backing OpenFOAM. The project has a really nice momentum.
However, I think most people take more than they give and OpenCFD is a company and as such needs to make a profit. It is not easy to publish open source code some people take this for granted and other take ownership not giving credit to the authors of their work.
Maybe OpenCFD would like to publish a book or something and the documentation would be a source of income. I wish all the success to OpenCFD and hope they can achieve the success of other open source projects like linux, mysql, firefox, etc.
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Old   October 13, 2009, 09:42
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I believe it is a bad idea to segment the open source community backing OpenFOAM.
I used to think that way too when these problems started to appear. Holger and me tried to discuss this with OpenCFD, but it did not lead to a solution, even if "foam" is a common name and cannot be considered a trademark. The solution of the fork is extreme, and I do not like it myself, since I know what can be the consequences, and the harm it can bring to the community. On the other hand, if it will work and the community will support it, it will be possible to move on with a different approach (after all the -dev version is doing that already). Another downside the lack of compatibility with the release from OpenCFD.

Quote:
The project has a really nice momentum.
I would say so too. I fail to see how all these artificial obstacles can help to keep it.

Quote:
However, I think most people take more than they give and OpenCFD is a company and as such needs to make a profit.
I disagree. If it is true that many take more than what they give, it is also true that nothing is done by them to allow users to contribute easily. I discussed also this with them. To contribute a part of code you have to accept conditions that are unfair at best. In particular:
  • You need to transfer the copyright to OpenCFD.
  • You need to remove (or they will do that for you) the authorship from your code.
  • You are requested to write the code "OpenFOAM style" following the "rules". Little detail: these rules are not written anywhere and no formatting style for any editor (it does not take ages to make one for Emacs for example, and it is unbelieavable they do not have one) is provided. I wonder how you can respect them.
Now, my personal opinion is that I can give my code for free to whoever. I'm not paid for the code I write, so I can do that, even if it enables other research group to compete on my ground. But I cannot give up on the authorship, that's something I do not want to do. If I contribute, I want a recognition, or it is like I did not contribute anything.

[quote
It is not easy to publish open source code some people take this for granted and other take ownership not giving credit to the authors of their work. [/quote]

Yes I agree. But the problem is two-way. See above.

Quote:
Maybe OpenCFD would like to publish a book or something and the documentation would be a source of income.
This was proposed long time ago to them. If I remember right, they were waiting for sponsorship to do that. I did not see this happen, and more documentation is desperately needed now, not in some year, or it will be difficult to increase the usage of OpenFOAM faster, especially in research and schools, since OpenFOAM it is already perceived as too complicated to use and with a too steep learning curve.

Quote:
I wish all the success to OpenCFD and hope they can achieve the success of other open source projects like linux, mysql, firefox, etc.
You quoted three projects where the strategy is to keep it as much open as possible. The Linux kernel accepts contributions with a systematic procedure, and they are actually investing quite some time to teach new developers how to work on the kernel (see for example linux.com). mySQL accepts contributions of many kinds. Firefox made contributing a state of art, with their extensions. They are well and alive because they foster community members to help.

P.S. I really think the "right solution" would be to do this together with OpenCFD, as originally suggested by Holger, and I feel there is still time to do that. It is not a competition between parts with different goals in my view. It is mainly a question of different approaches. But again, it won't surely be possible if they won't even try to talk and discuss publicly at this point.

Best,
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Old   October 13, 2009, 09:54
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Quote:
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Hi

Then simply name the site www.free-CFD-doc.org or something, I know that OpenCFD don't have any copyright on the word free, CFD and doc so we should be in the home stretch here.
I do not know if they registered the trademark (probably not) but there is a project called FreeCFD http://www.freecfd.com/

Best,
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