CFD Online Logo CFD Online URL
www.cfd-online.com
[Sponsors]
Home > Forums > Software User Forums > ANSYS > CFX

Problem with small timestep size

Register Blogs Community New Posts Updated Threads Search

Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By ghorrocks

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old   May 19, 2023, 15:11
Default Problem with small timestep size
  #1
Member
 
Ashkan Kashani
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 46
Rep Power: 10
Ashkan Kashani is on a distinguished road
Hello,

Simulation description & objective:
The simulation case is shown in Fig.1. The objective is to study the flow structures around and the forces on a partially submerged rectangular body. In a nutshell, I am using the standard free surface homogenous multiphase model to solve the pseudo-2D transient RANS equations plus volume fraction equation on a structured hexahedral mesh. The CCL is also available in the attachment for full details of the model.
Description of the issue:
After a while into the simulation, the solver starts to struggle with converging the volume fraction equation, which, in turn, causes the adaptive timestepping algorithm (set to 3 to 5 coefficient loops per timestep, as recommended) to severely decrease the timestep size. The following is the typical convergence history in one timestep, showing that while the volume fraction equation is the bottleneck, the rest equations have already converged with small RMS residual values even in the first iteration.
================================================== ====================
| Adaptive Timestepping Information |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Direction | Ratio | Last Value | Next Value | RMS Co | Max Co |
+----------------+-------+------------+------------+--------+--------+
| Unchanged | 1.000 | 1.0737E-03 | 1.0737E-03 | 1.59 | 32.50 |
+----------------+-------+------------+------------+--------+--------+

================================================== ====================
TIME STEP = 3722 SIMULATION TIME = 1.9092E+01 CPU SECONDS = 3.629E+06
----------------------------------------------------------------------
COEFFICIENT LOOP ITERATION = 1 CPU SECONDS = 3.629E+06
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Equation | Rate | RMS Res | Max Res | Linear Solution |
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| U-Mom-Bulk | 0.88 | 7.1E-06 | 2.2E-03 | 1.5E-02 OK|
| V-Mom-Bulk | 1.00 | 1.4E-06 | 1.7E-04 | 4.0E-02 OK|
| W-Mom-Bulk | 0.00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 OK|
| P-Vol | 1.00 | 2.8E-08 | 6.3E-06 | 12.0 5.2E-02 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| Mass-Water | 1.00 | 1.7E-03 | 2.6E-01 | 10.8 3.4E-08 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| K-TurbKE-Bulk | 0.99 | 1.1E-05 | 3.3E-03 | 7.8 2.9E-03 OK|
| O-TurbFreq-Bulk | 0.98 | 8.4E-05 | 5.2E-02 | 7.7 8.4E-04 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
----------------------------------------------------------------------
COEFFICIENT LOOP ITERATION = 2 CPU SECONDS = 3.629E+06
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Equation | Rate | RMS Res | Max Res | Linear Solution |
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| U-Mom-Bulk | 0.98 | 6.9E-06 | 2.4E-03 | 2.9E-02 OK|
| V-Mom-Bulk | 1.47 | 2.0E-06 | 7.0E-04 | 3.6E-02 OK|
| W-Mom-Bulk | 0.00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 OK|
| P-Vol | 2.03 | 5.8E-08 | 1.1E-05 | 12.0 5.6E-02 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| Mass-Water | 0.27 | 4.6E-04 | 1.4E-01 | 10.8 1.0E-07 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| K-TurbKE-Bulk | 0.16 | 1.7E-06 | 6.0E-04 | 14.7 4.9E-02 OK|
| O-TurbFreq-Bulk | 1.61 | 1.4E-04 | 5.5E-02 | 7.7 5.2E-04 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
----------------------------------------------------------------------
COEFFICIENT LOOP ITERATION = 3 CPU SECONDS = 3.629E+06
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Equation | Rate | RMS Res | Max Res | Linear Solution |
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| U-Mom-Bulk | 0.27 | 1.9E-06 | 6.3E-04 | 4.6E-02 OK|
| V-Mom-Bulk | 0.23 | 4.6E-07 | 1.1E-04 | 9.2E-02 OK|
| W-Mom-Bulk | 0.00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 OK|
| P-Vol | 0.42 | 2.4E-08 | 3.5E-06 | 12.0 2.4E-02 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| Mass-Water | 0.39 | 1.8E-04 | 5.9E-02 | 10.7 2.0E-07 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| K-TurbKE-Bulk | 0.29 | 4.9E-07 | 2.0E-04 | 7.8 9.3E-02 OK|
| O-TurbFreq-Bulk | 0.12 | 1.7E-05 | 7.8E-03 | 7.7 7.4E-04 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
----------------------------------------------------------------------
COEFFICIENT LOOP ITERATION = 4 CPU SECONDS = 3.629E+06
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Equation | Rate | RMS Res | Max Res | Linear Solution |
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| U-Mom-Bulk | 0.39 | 7.3E-07 | 2.5E-04 | 5.4E-02 OK|
| V-Mom-Bulk | 0.46 | 2.1E-07 | 9.0E-05 | 1.1E-01 ok|
| W-Mom-Bulk | 0.00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 | 0.0E+00 OK|
| P-Vol | 0.44 | 1.1E-08 | 1.7E-06 | 12.0 1.7E-02 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| Mass-Water | 0.51 | 9.1E-05 | 2.5E-02 | 10.8 2.5E-07 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+
| K-TurbKE-Bulk | 0.48 | 2.4E-07 | 1.0E-04 | 7.8 9.9E-02 OK|
| O-TurbFreq-Bulk | 0.35 | 5.9E-06 | 2.0E-03 | 7.7 6.5E-04 OK|
+----------------------+------+---------+---------+------------------+

Given the long simulation time required to reach a statistically convergent solution, the small timestep size makes it impossible to achieve the simulation goal. Note that I do not want to study these bubbles, nor do I think they have any considerable impact on the variables of interest.

My suspicion:
In the post-processing, I have noticed tiny air bubbles that are probably entrained at the body leading edge and carried underneath the body. As shown in Fig.2, the locations of these bubbles coincide well with the locations of high residuals corresponding to the volume fraction equation. That's why I think the bubbles are responsible for slowing down the convergence.

Questions:
1- Is my suspicion legit?
2- How to fix the issue? Should I set the timestep manually and ignore the residuals of the volume fraction equation?
3- Alternatively, I have considered to artificially reduce the air density so as to prevent air entrainment in the first place. Does that make sense? I am not sure if this would make any undesired side effect on the simulation results.

I appreciate your viewpoints.

Regards,
Armin
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fig.1.jpg (57.6 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Fig.2.jpg (42.7 KB, 12 views)
Attached Files
File Type: txt CCL.txt (26.2 KB, 1 views)
Ashkan Kashani is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   May 20, 2023, 04:50
Default
  #2
Super Moderator
 
Glenn Horrocks
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 17,729
Rep Power: 143
ghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really nice
My answers:
1) Probably, yes.
2) If you run a larger time step the VF equation is likely to give rubbish results and possibly diverge. So increasing the time step size is not recommended.
3) Yes, that can help as long as the change does not signficantly change results of importance.

Other comments:
* I see you do not have the surface tension model activated. This would make this run even slower and harder to converge.
* What is the size of this object, and how fast is it moving?
* Do you expect air to be entrained around it in the actual device?
* Can you show your mesh density and quality? VF equations can eb very sensitive to mesh quality.
__________________
Note: I do not answer CFD questions by PM. CFD questions should be posted on the forum.
ghorrocks is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   May 21, 2023, 12:23
Default
  #3
Member
 
Ashkan Kashani
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 46
Rep Power: 10
Ashkan Kashani is on a distinguished road
Dear Ghorrocks, thank you very much for your comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
1) Probably, yes.
I agree with you. An additional piece of supporting evidence is the fact that when I alter a result file by overwriting the variable "Water.Volume Fraction" so as to manually remove these bubbles, and then use that file to initialize the simulation, the volume fraction equation converges much faster without restricting the timestep size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
2) If you run a larger time step the VF equation is likely to give rubbish results and possibly diverge. So increasing the time step size is not recommended.
I was hoping that increasing the timestep would only affect these seemingly insignificant air bubbles. Based on your answer, there is no guarantee it is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
* I see you do not have the surface tension model activated. This would make this run even slower and harder to converge.
As far as I understand, the surface tension model imposes very strict requirements on the mesh as well as the timestep size. I was hoping to evade such requirements as much as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
* What is the size of this object, and how fast is it moving?
The body is not moving. Please see Fig.1 in the attachment for a sketch of the body and the domain sizes. Note the aspect ratio of the body (i.e. \frac{t_{s}}{L}) ranges from 1 to 30 in my simulation cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
* Do you expect air to be entrained around it in the actual device?
I have not observed the physical experiments myself, but I was advised of no bubble observation by the lab operator. As a result, these bubbles could be a byproduct of imperfect numerical modelling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
* Can you show your mesh density and quality? VF equations can eb very sensitive to mesh quality.
Please see Fig.2 in the attachment.

I really appreciate your help.

Regards,
Armin
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fig.1.jpg (70.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Fig.2.jpg (164.0 KB, 11 views)
Ashkan Kashani is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   May 21, 2023, 18:45
Default
  #4
Super Moderator
 
Glenn Horrocks
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 17,729
Rep Power: 143
ghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really nice
You have a big jump in mesh size at the front edge of the body, and the aspect ratio of the elements below the body is pretty high (for a volume fraction equation). I would remesh this with 1:1 aspect ratio elements, and larger than you current have. I would then do a mesh sensitivity check to work out what size elements you need.

I think you will find the volume fraction equation will be MUCH better behaved when you resolve these mesh issues, and then the auto time stepping will work fine.
__________________
Note: I do not answer CFD questions by PM. CFD questions should be posted on the forum.
ghorrocks is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   May 23, 2023, 10:31
Default
  #5
Member
 
Ashkan Kashani
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 46
Rep Power: 10
Ashkan Kashani is on a distinguished road
Thank you for your comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
and the aspect ratio of the elements below the body is pretty high (for a volume fraction equation).
I have seen somewhere in the ANSYS documentation saying that the free surface region could be resolved with the inflation mesh (prism cells with high aspect ratio). Why aren't high aspect ratio cells a problem in that case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghorrocks View Post
I would remesh this with 1:1 aspect ratio elements, and larger than you current have.
Since I am using a cartesian mesh, these high aspect ratio cells are inevitable and 1:1 cells are not possible everywhere in the domain (particularly as a result of the inflation layer around the body coming off the walls and going into the flow). Right? So what region(s) of the domain should be covered with 1:1 cells in your opinion? For what regions high aspect ratio cells are allowed here?

Regards,
Armin

Last edited by Ashkan Kashani; May 23, 2023 at 14:24.
Ashkan Kashani is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   May 23, 2023, 21:03
Default
  #6
Super Moderator
 
Glenn Horrocks
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 17,729
Rep Power: 143
ghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really niceghorrocks is just really nice
I have done a lot of free surface modelling with surface tension, and to get accurate surface tension results you need aspect ratio 1 cells (you get significant deviations even at aspect ratio = 1.2). But you do not have surface tension so your requirements will not be as strict as this, but still I would not push it too far. The surface reconstruction algorithm will definitely work better as the aspect ratio nears 1.

I do not know what aspect ratio is the limit in your case. You are going to have to do the checks to work that out. But the aspect ratio you current have is much bigger than I would use for that model.
Ashkan Kashani likes this.
__________________
Note: I do not answer CFD questions by PM. CFD questions should be posted on the forum.
ghorrocks is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[ANSYS Meshing] Reducing mesh size along z-axis for 3D conjugate heat transfer problem fluentnewb ANSYS Meshing & Geometry 3 May 10, 2020 02:51
SU2-7.0.1 on ubuntu 18.04 hyunko SU2 Installation 7 March 16, 2020 04:37
[snappyHexMesh] Problem: after snappyHexMesh, the cells size are not the same kanes OpenFOAM Meshing & Mesh Conversion 0 January 25, 2016 08:06
Superlinear speedup in OpenFOAM 13 msrinath80 OpenFOAM Running, Solving & CFD 18 March 3, 2015 05:36
parallel mode - small problem? co2 FLUENT 2 June 1, 2004 23:47


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:44.