Ideal gas problem

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 March 18, 2014, 06:32 Ideal gas problem #1 Member   Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pisa / Italy Posts: 62 Rep Power: 16 Hi all. I've a problem in simulating a Buoyant Ideal gas inside a closed domain. Here is the problem. If I use Air Ideal Gas I obtain a constant absolute pressure field, with a variable density and velocity field If I use a constant density gas I obtain a Isochoric compression with no buoyancy. How can I simulate a buoyant gas AND an increase in internal pressure due to temperature increase? Have I to use real gas model? Thank you

 March 18, 2014, 16:49 #2 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143 Ideal gas will have a hydrostatic pressure gradient. You do not need real gas for this. Have a look in the documentation about hydrostatic pressure - the pressure variable has the hydrostatic component removed in buoyant simulations. But the absolute pressure should include the hydrostatic component.

 March 19, 2014, 02:05 #3 Member   Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pisa / Italy Posts: 62 Rep Power: 16 Hi Glenn, I've seen you were also answering me on another post http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/cfx...ed-cavity.html My problem is exactly the same (same tutorial), but in a steady state simulation. I use ideal gas but the average absolute pressure inside my domain is always 101325 Pa which is the reference pressure I set. I tried to set Pressure level information but It give me error STDOUT: Fatal bounds error detected --------------------------- Variable: Absolute Pressure so probably I set something wrong

 March 19, 2014, 05:52 #4 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143 You will have problems running a closed domain with an incompressible fluid. You will get out of bounds errors on pressure...... Which is what you are getting You have to either make the fluid compressible or put a pressure boundary in it to define the pressure.

 March 19, 2014, 06:02 #5 Member   Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pisa / Italy Posts: 62 Rep Power: 16 Hi, My fluid is compressible. Is Air ideal gas. I only get this error if I set pressure level information at 101350 Pa like the reference pressure inside my fluid_domain tab. I can't insert a pressure boundary condition since my problem is a closed box ( like the tutorial )

 March 19, 2014, 06:10 #6 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143 Can you post an image of what you are modelling and your CCL?

 March 19, 2014, 06:46 #7 Member   Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pisa / Italy Posts: 62 Rep Power: 16 I have just dowloaded the ansys tutorial "buoyant flow in a partitioned cavity". Than I have switched AIR at 25°C (incompressible gas used in tutorial) with AIR IDEAL GAS and set the reference density for buoyancy as " volumeAve(Density)@Buoyancy2D" Here I post the results for STEADY STATE and UNSTEADY STATE simulation. As you can see the pressure ( relative pressure ) is almost 11000 Pa in the unsteady simulation ( in agreement with a isochoric transformation for a ideal gas ). For the Steady simulation is almost 0 Pa Setting are exactly the same Domain Name : Buoyancy2D +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Variable Name | min | max | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Density | 1.01E+00 | 1.27E+00 | | Specific Heat Capacity at Constant Pressure| 1.00E+03 | 1.00E+03 | | Dynamic Viscosity | 1.83E-05 | 1.83E-05 | | Thermal Conductivity | 2.61E-02 | 2.61E-02 | | Isothermal Compressibility | 9.87E-06 | 9.87E-06 | | Static Entropy | -6.97E+01 | 1.56E+02 | | Velocity u | -1.05E-06 | 1.09E-06 | | Velocity v | -1.11E-06 | 1.06E-06 | | Velocity w | 0.00E+00 | 0.00E+00 | | Pressure | -4.35E-05 | 6.60E-05 | | Temperature | 2.78E+02 | 3.48E+02 | | Static Enthalpy | -2.01E+04 | 5.02E+04 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Domain Name : Buoyancy2D +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Variable Name | min | max | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Density | 1.13E+00 | 1.42E+00 | | Specific Heat Capacity at Constant Pressure| 1.00E+03 | 1.00E+03 | | Dynamic Viscosity | 1.83E-05 | 1.83E-05 | | Thermal Conductivity | 2.61E-02 | 2.61E-02 | | Isothermal Compressibility | 8.85E-06 | 8.85E-06 | | Static Entropy | -1.01E+02 | 1.24E+02 | | Velocity u | -1.17E-06 | 1.22E-06 | | Velocity v | -1.24E-06 | 1.18E-06 | | Velocity w | 0.00E+00 | 0.00E+00 | | Pressure | 1.17E+04 | 1.17E+04 | | Temperature | 2.78E+02 | 3.48E+02 | | Static Enthalpy | -2.01E+04 | 5.02E+04 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

 March 19, 2014, 16:34 #8 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143 You should set the reference density to a constant value. I am not sure what CFX does if you set it to a potentially varying number like you have. It could do unexpected things.

 March 20, 2014, 03:14 #9 Member   Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pisa / Italy Posts: 62 Rep Power: 16 Hi, I asked to Ansys support service. They said It's a bug of the software. Basically to solve this situation they told me to insert a temperature variable " presure level information ", according to perfect law gas. Hope this can help other people with same problem. Thanks Glenn for you kindness

 March 20, 2014, 05:13 #10 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143 Sure, but still give it a constant value, not a function of the field variables. The whole point of a reference value is it is constant. If it changes it is not much of a reference.

March 20, 2014, 05:22
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 Originally Posted by Atze Hi, I asked to Ansys support service. They said It's a bug of the software. Basically to solve this situation they told me to insert a temperature variable " presure level information ", according to perfect law gas. Hope this can help other people with same problem. Thanks Glenn for you kindness
What does it means: temperature variable " presure level information "? p = p(T) = Rho * R * T?

 March 20, 2014, 05:46 #12 Member   Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Pisa / Italy Posts: 62 Rep Power: 16 In solver control, under " pressure level informations " you have to write P = P0/T0 * T , where P0,T0 are reference values for your gas and T is the mean temperature in your domain

 March 20, 2014, 15:56 #13 Super Moderator   Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,703 Rep Power: 143 Yes, but mean temperature at the initial condition (or some other condition) to return a constant value. Do not make it a function of the average temperature at that moment in time because then it is not constant.

 Tags buoyancy, ideal gas