# How to determine time step size and Max. iterations per time step.

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 March 6, 2012, 14:41 How to determine time step size and Max. iterations per time step. #1 New Member   Pratik Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14 I am trying to simulate airflow through a room and am performing a transient calculation. Could someone please tell me how to determine time step size and max iterations per time step? rgd, chaitanyaarige, hashim84 and 4 others like this.

 March 7, 2012, 03:47 #2 Senior Member     Rick Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,016 Rep Power: 26 Hi, A rule of thumb is to set time step< deltax/u where deltax is the smallest cell size and u is the velocity. Usually I set max iteration per time step equal to 50 or 100, depending on residual values (if I want convergence at 10^-3 ^-4 I set near 50, if I want 10^-7 closest to 100). Daniele sina_mech, saha2122, adiosa and 24 others like this.

 March 7, 2012, 04:38 #3 New Member   Pratik Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14 Sorry I am quite new to this. Could you please tell me how to determine the smallest cell size?. And also what number of time steps would I need? rgd and Sittisak like this.

 March 7, 2012, 05:28 #5 New Member   Pratik Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14 Thank You Danielle.

March 9, 2012, 15:20
#6
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duri
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by ghost82 A rule of thumb is to set time step< deltax/u where deltax is the smallest cell size and u is the velocity.
This is correct for explicit schemes but solver take cares of it. In case of implicit solver we can go for higher time steps (>100 times). This results in faster solution.
Start with some characteristic length to characteristic velocity ratio. Reduce or increase the time step by an order based on the no. of iterations it takes to converge.

March 11, 2012, 04:59
#7
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sanjay
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Hi Daniele,

It would be better to adjust the time step such that maximum iteration/time step not more then 20. If Solution is not converging within this pseudo time step (iteration) then prefer to decrease physical time step.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ghost82 Hi, A rule of thumb is to set time step< deltax/u where deltax is the smallest cell size and u is the velocity. Usually I set max iteration per time step equal to 50 or 100, depending on residual values (if I want convergence at 10^-3 ^-4 I set near 50, if I want 10^-7 closest to 100). Daniele

 March 12, 2012, 10:42 #8 Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Germany Posts: 552 Rep Power: 20 I want to ask what is the role of Courant No. in determining the time step size?? As we know Courant No. = velocity*delta(t)/delta(x), by this equation time step size is directly proportional to Courant No, so can we use bigger time step size by increasing the Courant No. ???

March 13, 2012, 13:02
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banty
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But in case of wave tracking, even with the implicit solver time step should be taken such that wave should be not move more then one cell in single time step.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by duri This is correct for explicit schemes but solver take cares of it. In case of implicit solver we can go for higher time steps (>100 times). This results in faster solution. Start with some characteristic length to characteristic velocity ratio. Reduce or increase the time step by an order based on the no. of iterations it takes to converge.

March 13, 2012, 13:25
#10
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banty
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Role of Courant no depends upon the solvers setng.

In case of pressure based and density based (both explicit and implicit) solver with backward euler (1st and 2nd order), time step(physical time step) is entered by the user based on physics involved and CFL no & no of sub iteration decides the speed of convergence.

But in case of explicit-explicit density based solver, time step (physical time step) is decided by the CFL no (User Input) and based on Courant No. = velocity*delta(t)/delta(x).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by cfd seeker I want to ask what is the role of Courant No. in determining the time step size?? As we know Courant No. = velocity*delta(t)/delta(x), by this equation time step size is directly proportional to Courant No, so can we use bigger time step size by increasing the Courant No. ???

March 13, 2012, 14:52
#11
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duri
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by cfd seeker I want to ask what is the role of Courant No. in determining the time step size?? As we know Courant No. = velocity*delta(t)/delta(x), by this equation time step size is directly proportional to Courant No, so can we use bigger time step size by increasing the Courant No. ???
Yes you can use but it can only control the time step size of inner iterations. It will help in faster convergence of inner iteration but remember there is a restriction on this value due to numerical stability (even for implicit). In unsteady problem physical time steps are more important that numerical time steps to capture a phenomenon.

 March 18, 2012, 22:34 #12 Member   Mahindra Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 59 Rep Power: 13 Hello I am doing analysis of flow past circular cylinder. Can anyone suggest me what are the solver settings? And how to calculate time step? Regards Mahindra

 June 19, 2013, 07:10 #13 Member   Yash Ganatra Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 67 Rep Power: 13 Is it steady state or transient?

 June 19, 2013, 11:09 time step #14 Senior Member   Tanjina Afrin Join Date: May 2013 Location: South Carolina Posts: 169 Rep Power: 13 Hi, I have also similar question, but couldn't find any definite answer. i am trying to model a flow through a circular pipe from a rectangular reservoir. I used workbench for meshing. It's triangular mesh. element size is 6e-3m. How can I determine time step. I modeled 3D. I couldn't find any option called iteration/time step, but in may tutorial I saw it.

 June 20, 2013, 02:31 #15 Member   Yash Ganatra Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 67 Rep Power: 13 Post some more details. Attach photos of the mesh. 1. Is it steady state or transient? 2. Laminar or turbulent? You can find the option in FLUENT in the Run Calculation settings in the Problem Setup tab on the left

June 20, 2013, 10:03
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Tanjina Afrin
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Hi,

This is 3-D transient time, turbulent two phase flow problem . I have attached two photo with this reply. please have a look on calculation setting photo.

More details : I want to let the water flow from the reservoir to circular pipe and let air fill up the empty place of reservoir which will be created after water going to reservoir.
Attached Images
 calculation setting.jpg (92.4 KB, 560 views) Mesh _full.jpg (96.1 KB, 440 views)

 June 20, 2013, 12:15 #17 Member   Yash Ganatra Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 67 Rep Power: 13 I see that divergence is being detected? For which quantity (momentum,energy etc) it is getting detected? Are you using VOF Model?Can't this be done in 2D also?Give snaps of Solution Methods and control ; from what I make out by referring to various threads, if the solution is not converging better to reduce time step. See literature - a similar problem, what was the time stepping used ;

June 20, 2013, 17:16
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Tanjina Afrin
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I see that divergence is being detected? For which quantity (momentum,energy etc) it is getting detected? Are you using VOF Model?Can't this be done in 2D also?Give snaps of Solution Methods and control ; from what I make out by referring to various threads, if the solution is not converging better to reduce time step.
See literature - a similar problem, what was the time stepping used ;

At First, it showed AMG divergence: x-momentum. then I reduce momentum in relaxation factor from 1 to 0.7, 0.1. then model completed its run. But residual is not decreasing. its increasing with saw tooth shape.

yea I have used VOF model. Actually pipe is circular and tank is rectangular, so I didn't understand how can I model it in 2D.

Please find the screenshot of solution method and control.
Attached Images
 solution control.jpg (96.9 KB, 303 views) solution method.jpg (98.3 KB, 245 views)

 June 21, 2013, 01:34 #19 Member   Yash Ganatra Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 67 Rep Power: 13 Hi, What I meant was that you can model the cross section. Why have you used Non Iterative Time Advancement? I have never worked with it so I have no idea about this. Check if your boundary conditions are correct. Are those the default solution methods? I did a quick search and found this thread. Hopefully it will help you. http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/flu...-momentum.html

 June 21, 2013, 14:15 #20 Senior Member   Tanjina Afrin Join Date: May 2013 Location: South Carolina Posts: 169 Rep Power: 13 I just followed the step described in Tutorial 20, ink jet problem. My problem was little bit similar to that. That's why I used non -iterative time advancement. I reduced under relaxation factor, after doing that model run its full time step I specified, but result was not expected. I think I make some mistake in inlet BC. Can you suggest me anything about BC? I can describe what I want to model and what I used in BC if you are interested.