
[Sponsors] 
February 10, 2000, 16:51 
help with wall functions

#1 
Guest
Posts: n/a

I am trying to use the wallfunction approach of Ota and Goldberg, in which none of the flow variables are reset, and in fact, a noslip surface is used. The essence of the model is that you use a law of the wall (they propose using the WhiteCristoph compressible law of the wall) to solve for the wall shear stress, and then simply use this shear stress in the solution scheme. Any turbulence model (even an algebraic model like I am using, CebeciSmith) may then be employed with this method.
My questions to anyone familiar with this (or a similar) approach is: (1) When solving the law of the wall expression, the iterated quatity is friction velocity. This quantity is then squared and multiplied by the density to get the wall shear stress. How can this (especially through the squaring process) be expected to get an accurate wall shear stress? (2) Apart from solving for the wall shear stress, the (solved) shear stress throughout the rest of the bdy. layer should be constant, particularly near the wall. Can this happen in practice when using such a wall function? especially with a higher order scheme that would use the flow variables at the wall point and one off the wall? This wall function approach has been used with success by several authors, so I am sure my doubts are due to my ignornace on the topic. As a result, any explanations to my 2 questions will be very appreciated. 

February 10, 2000, 17:56 
Re: help with wall functions

#2 
Guest
Posts: n/a

(1). Why not send the email directly to the author(s) of the method? (2). Unless you have the name of the reference paper, it is somewhat difficult to know what you are talking about. (3). In general, the law of the wall is a one parameter family of curves, see Schlichting's Theory of Boundary Layer book. The unknown parameter is the v*, the friction velocity. It is the dimensionless wall shear stress. (4). This loglaw of the wall can be derived from the assumption of constant shear stress throughout the boundary layer. I think, the book also covers this part. (5). So, the constant shear stress assumption, and the universal law of the wall are wellknown. (6). Exactly how this should be used in a turbulence model varies greatly depending upon the model and the numerical method used. So, the best place is the author(s) of the model, I think.


February 19, 2000, 03:23 
Re: help with wall functions

#3 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Your first question confuses me. u_\tau is by definition equal to sqrt(\tau_w/\rho). So if you can find u_\tau and you know \rho, you know \tau_w. Its that simple.
The answer to your second question is that if your pressure gradients are small, constant stress is a good assumption through the log layer, in fact the lawofthewall is based upon this assumption. If your pressure gradients are not small, then you have to do something else, like add a first order correction to \tau_w. Bob 

February 20, 2000, 10:28 
Re: help with wall functions

#4 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Bob,
Thank you for your response. Regarding my first question, I am not challenging whether the formulation is physically correct, I know utau = sqrt(tauw / rho).....the problem is when you rewrite this, tauw = rho * (utau)**2  I am wondering as to how accurate this can be expected to be in a computational sense, since you are indirectly solving for utau, then squaring this value (and as a result, any innacuracies of utau are greatly magnified) Then you use this value for the wallshear where it very much determines the bdy. layer characteristics. I should mention that at the time I posted the first message, my bdy. layers (Mach 1.36 and Mach 1.91 flat plates with zero pressure gradient) were not correct  but then I took the suggestion of a coworker to completely turn off the artificial dissipation at the points near the wall, and this substantially improved the results. The behavior of the first point off the wall seems critical in getting the wall function method to work  you have to be careful with your solution scheme (how you do the differencing) and any artificial dissipation. 

February 20, 2000, 18:07 
Re: help with wall functions

#5 
Guest
Posts: n/a

If you converge your iteration for u_\tau to machine accuracy, then it should be no less accurate than any other squared quanitity in your calculation, of which there are likely dozens or hundreds, so I would not worry about it.
Artificial dissipation is an important issue for boundary layer calculations with or without wall functions, so yes, you do have to be careful there. Seems like you have it under control now. Out of curiousity, how do you handle the v component of velocity? Bob 

January 10, 2017, 04:52 

#6 
Senior Member
Ashwani
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 109
Rep Power: 5 
I hope the problem was solved. Can you please suggest how was pressure gradient calculated? Did you tried to solve this way for compression ramp problem?


January 11, 2017, 23:09 

#7 
Member
Jingchang.Shi
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Xi'an, China
Posts: 60
Rep Power: 6 
Are you working on wall model for hybrid LES/RANS? And try to account for separation in flow over ramp? Do you try just using pressure gradient calculated in your program?


January 16, 2017, 02:15 

#8 
Senior Member
Ashwani
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 109
Rep Power: 5 
Yes I am working on a wall model with RANS and I am trying to account for separation over ramp. Do you can provide any help.


January 16, 2017, 17:13 

#9 
Member
Jingchang.Shi
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Xi'an, China
Posts: 60
Rep Power: 6 
I'm working on a wall model with LES. And my final goal is to simulate flow over ramp. Yes, there will be separation. And I want to study the unsteadiness of shock wave/boundary layer interaction. So RANS does not work for my case, especially the unsteadiness of the separation. Why do you choose RANS to capture separation? Does that work?


January 17, 2017, 01:52 

#10 
Senior Member
Ashwani
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 109
Rep Power: 5 
Yes, it works mostly link, I more interested for getting steady results. RANS would need to be modified to get something of sort URANS for unsteadiness (which is presently not in my scope). So, presently I am trying to make wall function work with our RANS code. LES is something we have decided in our group to look on later. DO, you have results for flow over ramp steady case using RANS?
Thanks 

January 17, 2017, 11:03 

#11 
Member
Jingchang.Shi
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Xi'an, China
Posts: 60
Rep Power: 6 
Sorry, I've no results for your case with RANS.


Thread Tools  
Display Modes  


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Modelling Turbulent Wall Functions  victorwfreire  CFX  11  January 14, 2015 16:48 
LES with wall functions, wall boundary, Re 10000  subba  CFX  4  July 10, 2007 05:04 
Wall Functions  pierre  OpenFOAM Running, Solving & CFD  0  October 1, 2005 13:13 
Wall functions  iterative approach  agg  Main CFD Forum  1  May 13, 2005 12:25 
LES wall functions  barrat  Main CFD Forum  10  September 1, 2004 08:29 