
[Sponsors] 
October 3, 2008, 07:30 
Free surface or Mixture Model ?

#1 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Hello,
I am simulating a piece of the ocean where there is a thin layer of oil (5mm) at the surface. Water current is 1m/s. Same as the oil. I have a wall which is 1 meter high and which is supposed to stop the oil. I am interested in what's happening around the wall when the oil hits the wall. Basically, when does the oil flow under the wall ? So I have three materials :  Oil  Water  Air In the fluid pairs, I have chosen the "Open Surface" model for interface transfer for the WaterAir and OilAir pairs. But I am little unsure about the OilWater pair. Should I use the "Open Surface" or the "Mixture Model" ? If so What Interface Length scale should I use ? Regards, Hervé 

October 6, 2008, 23:00 
Re: Free surface or Mixture Model ?

#2 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Hi,
I assume the air, oil and water are all immiscible. This sounds like a free surface simulation where you actually have three phases, not just the normal 2. Just set the 3 pairs up with the same models as for free surface flows, but setting different surface tension, wall wetting angles or whatever are the relevant properties. Glenn Horrocks 

October 7, 2008, 04:11 
Re: Free surface or Mixture Model ?

#3 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Hi Glenn,
thanks for your answer About the surface tension coefficient, I had set 0.073 [N m^1] for the couple AirWater and 0.022 [N m^1] for the couple AirOil. Is this correct ? And how can I get the surface tension coefficient for my couple OilWater ? Regards, Hervé 

October 7, 2008, 20:35 
Re: Free surface or Mixture Model ?

#4 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Hi,
As a first estimate I would use 0.0730.022=0.051 N/m until you know better. This is based on the surface energy of air not being significant compared to water or oil. Glenn Horrocks 

October 8, 2008, 03:44 
Re: Free surface or Mixture Model ?

#5 
Guest
Posts: n/a

Thanks again for your answers Regards, Hervé


December 27, 2014, 10:22 

#6 
New Member
vahid Goodarzi Ardekani
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Rep Power: 5 
Hi everybody,
I want to simulate a waterair bubble model in CFX. Is mixture model in CFX a good choice for modeling such case? thank you Hamid 

December 28, 2014, 08:56 

#7  
Senior Member
Mr CFD
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Britain
Posts: 314
Rep Power: 7 
Quote:
The free surface model only considers the interfacial area density to be the gradient of the volume fraction normal to the interface. It's designed for free surface applications. So using it to model air bubbles in water isn't a good choice. The particle model is more reasonable. Its formulation for area density considers the a constant multiplied by the volume fraction divided by some sauter mean particle or bubble diameter which you specify. It's designed for bubbly flows. The mixture model is a red herring in that it's not really a model which is given to you, it's more of a model which you give to the solver. i.e. its formulation for the area density is a symmetric one: the product of the two volume fractions divided by some length scale which you specify. This length scale varies from application to application, and in reality will not be a constant but a function of the flow regime. You need to determine what this is. For bubble cases with the top free surface modelling as a degassing BC use the particle model. For bubbles rising, and breaking the free surface, and coalescence and breakup use the mixture model. For pure free surface problems use the free surface model. 

December 28, 2014, 17:25 

#8 
Super Moderator
Glenn Horrocks
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 13,301
Rep Power: 103 
Nice answer Mr CFD. I will just add that free surface models are used when you want to directly resolve the gas/liquid interface in your simulation. This means for most applications you are only going to be able to model 1 or 2 bubbles. If 1 or 2 bubbles is good then use the free surface model.
For many industrial bubbly flows you have thousands or millions of bubbles. This means the free surface model is not suitable and means you should consider the particle and mixture models as explained in the previous post. 

December 29, 2014, 08:16 
Mixture model

#9 
New Member
vahid Goodarzi Ardekani
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Rep Power: 5 
Hi
Thanks both of you Mr CFD and Glenn in fact my case is a single air bubble in water. when I apply sinusoidal pressure at the water boundary the bubble starts to expand and then when the pressure inside the bubble decreases and the bubble has reached its maximum radius it will collapse catastrophically. I have done this in CFX with mixture model and the results are fairly good but my supervisor says that the mixture model is not an appropriate model for simulating this case. Do you agree with him??? Hamid 

December 29, 2014, 11:57 

#10  
Senior Member
Mr CFD
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Britain
Posts: 314
Rep Power: 7 
Quote:
If you have a single bubble then the particle model may be sufficient. However you haven't described your problem well, and you haven't included any pictures so it's hard to give advice. Try it with the particle model and compare to your results with the mixture model. Do you have experimental data? I take it the bubble is water vapour since it collapses back into the water? If this is the case is the problem non isothermal? I.e. are you modelling the energy equation with some condensing thermal phase change? Please take the time to explain what you're doing. 

December 29, 2014, 14:29 

#11 
New Member
vahid Goodarzi Ardekani
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 14
Rep Power: 5 
hi
Dear Mr CFD thanks for your patience. my case is exactly " Sonoluminescence ". unfortunately I have no time to test the particle model. I have already gotten the results of my work with mixture model with a time step of """1e12""" and it takes a long time to test the case with the particle model. the results are fairly in agreement with the experimental data. but my supervisor doesn't accept simulating with mixture model. I ask you about the mixture model because I needed a reason to say to my supervisor that what I have done is right. As I see I have chosen the model wrongly. thank you ... Hamid 

Thread Tools  
Display Modes  


Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Can Flow3D plot the free surface area in Isosurface or colour variable?  therockyy  FLOW3D  1  June 20, 2010 19:36 
MULTIPHASE  FREE SURFACE & MIXTURE MODEL  Aris  FLUENT  3  April 28, 2009 11:46 
define a layer at the free surface in VOF model  UDF for normal distance at free surface in VOF mo  FLUENT  0  March 20, 2005 07:20 
gravitational force for free surface flow  Jongtae Kim  Main CFD Forum  1  July 2, 2000 11:57 
free surface model of pelton turbine bucket  Mark Jones  Main CFD Forum  0  April 10, 2000 08:20 