(1). I think you are right. And a school can not survive by creating a CFD department. As a matter of factor, there are very few aerospace or aeronautical engineering Departments. (2). At the MS level, one normally receive only the basic training in advanced calculus, partial differential equations, fluid dynamics and boundary layer theory, heat transfer (conduction, convection and radiation), and thermodynamics and statistical thermodynamics. And these are rather basic stuff. You can use these to solve a real problem directly. (3). At the PhD level, you will get additional training especially in reading the technical papers. At this level, you will have the needed background to read and follow the material presented in the paper, which is the first step to learn how to eventually solve your problem in your research project. (4). In the "IT" field, there is no need to have any advanced degrees in order to provide good services. This is the other extreme of CFD. In CFD, the current commercial trend is to create a commercial code. On the other hand, in "IT", the trend has been to create a language, so that people can use it. This create more applications of the new language and more jobs as well. The increased activities promote the health of the "IT" field. (5). So, it seems to me that the commercial cfd code development is following the old mainframe computer approach, where the goal is to create a better code or a better computer. That approach to the computer hardware and related software industries are gone. And This is the same reason why MS is having problems with the courts. (6). So, a healthy industry is one which provide common technical platform to many people, and not to implement a common solution approach. There is no such thing as "which is the best C++". (7). If you say that you have ten years of experience with a IBM mainframe computer, then I think, your job is probably not very secure. On the other hand, if you say that you have five years of experience in C++, you can probably find many high pay jobs today. (8). CFD problems are always specialized problems. If people are still trying to solve a simple flow over airfoil, then it is clear that one can not generalize the solution of it to other flow problems. (9). Most commercial cfd vendors have at one time worked for large companies in the past. Since that home base has long gone since late 80's, they are trying to stay alive in a different form. That's not their fault. It is because of the changing time. It is not possible to follow their footsteps, by repeating the history. (10). So, I like the idea of the "flea market" for the cfd forum. You simply do not ask the owner about the product he is selling ( a black box). If you like the code, just pay the cash and you have it.(no warranty provided, and the price is not fixed either. it is cheaper if you are a student.) (11). Once you have this overall picture, and still have the time left over, then come here and relax.

Here is my experience:

I'm just finishing up my MS in chemical engineering. It took me 2 years; in that time, I learned to use Fluent and CFX. Once a few inventors in my city heard about my skills they came begging for a simulation of their 'machine'. Each one came with $5000+ for a few days of work. Not bad for someone with no experience and little education (it paid for my MS degree and I'm living well).

I don't know if there is money for you, but everyone around here is begging for my time.

Looks good so far.

When I trained on CFX (several years ago), a full day of consulting by a CFX 'expert analyst', including code use and exclusive use of a high end work station, cost $1,500 at the CFX training center in Pittsburgh.

What did you have left of your $5,000 after you paid for the computer time and the license use? If they were 'free', you and your clients got a good deal.

Would you be able to work this way over a long period of time?

The computer time was free, just a simple workstation. Fluent is free to universities. I did travel to Germany to learn CFX - so that cost me $4000 for a two month stay (but I treated it like a vacation as well).

I really don't know how long I could work like this. If small businesses are coming to me (on their own) with money, what would happen if I went searching for more? Who knows, but I think there are many opportunities out there right now. I think some people could make a fortune as consultants, does anyone else agree?

I think our young friend Scott W. has been up to no good using an educational license to support commercial work. I wouldn't be bragging about that type of thing over a public message board, the wrong person at AEA might just be listening in ...

Unless of course you used your considerable skills to whip up your own code to help these inventors out.

George

Good point George, we probably should start a new thread and discuss it. No, my own codes pale in comparison to commercial programs.

As far as I can tell, the educational licenses are available for two reasons: 1) The nice companies want to give back to society. 2) When we learn to use CFD in our classes, then we are likely to purchase licenses in the industry.

I choose to follow step (2), if someone wants to donate money to the university then I will create a simple model of their process. Then, if they want more, I request that they purchase their own license and I'm willing to help train them to use it.

If any company is angry that I got them several more customers, I'm sorry. My email address is located above, and if emailed I will tell those businesses that they shouldn't have ordered Fluent. And I will stop being a walking advertisement. If any company requests that I continue finding customers for them, I will do that too.

Hi Scott,

You are correct, commercial CFD companies give out cheap licenses to educational institutions so that students will learn their packages and perhaps purchase them in the future. This only entails working on student projects and the like. I highly doubt that they are taking the high moral ground and 'giving back to society'. In the real world, all companies are driven by the profit motive!

When a student begins to use these packages for profit, the educational license is no longer suitable. This is regardless of whether or not you are attracting new customers.

What happens to the engineer who is running a consulting business and paying big bucks to support both a computer and a commercial license when a student comes along and starts to undercut their rates. I think you would agree that this is not exactly ethical.

If you want to start a CFD consulting business, by all means get a loan and purchase both a computer and a license. I applaud your initiative and hope that you do well in the future, maybe I'll even give you some work.

George

You could say the same about all university research. At least in my university, virtually all engineering grad students are paid for their work. The students - who often get paid less than minimum wage - will undercut any professional consultants. It is the state of education today, and if that is unethical we have a major problem. I see companies all the time that would rather sponser two students to do the research than hire a full time engineer.

I have no interest in becoming a consultant (I just want to publish a few papers and write a thesis on these projects), but I do think there is money available. So many people would use CFD, but they don't even know it exists. It may be hard work, but T (the original message poster) can find these people and earn a living.

(1). cfd forum is a flea market. The items are at most worth 2cents. (2). CFD forum is not CFD. (3). Commercial CFD code is not CFD. (4). Running a commercial CFD code is not CFD. (5). And there is no money in CFD. (6). CFD is not a trade mark. So, if one can make money with CFD attached, then I don't have any objection at all. (7). Since a commercial cfd code is not cfd, a school should not be using it at all. A school should teach student CFD, but not how to use a black box with CFD printed on the outside (especially for the purpose of making money). We really don't know what is inside a black box, do you? (8). My suggestion is: keep the commercial cfd codes outside the school, and CFD does not deal with money making at all. CFD is "Numerical Analysis and Mathematical Modelling in Fluid Dynamics". Like anything else, it requires knowledge of computer programming, geometry modelling, etc... And based on my several years experience in using commercial cfd codes, results obtained so far are not satisfactory.

hi cfd is vast field, so if you are intrested in phd and research in cfd, then you can think of developing your own CFD software and if you are good in marketing, you can also find a suitable franchise.

ultimately it all depends on intrests, if you just to be application engineer just start learning CFD software rightway in your institute,and try to solve as many problems related to your engineering field, in cfd software like fluent5 etc. in order to develope CFD source codes,you should be quite good in maths and particular engineering field you are into, in this way you will also be doing lot of programming, and you will be far ahead of a common programmer.

(1). Please do say something, because it costs the reader to open the message, regardless of whether it is empty or not. (2). The world is not perfect, ideal, or even trouble free. So, feel free to express yourself and make yourself comfortable here.

(2). The world is not perfect, ideal, or even trouble free

How can it be when you are in it.

(1). Well, good thinking. (2). As long as I am here, there will be cfd forum.

Yeah, John has been teaching CFD 101 for dummies for couple years, I believe. But dummies keep on coming almost every day. John is never going to be jobless, I am positive. And, at least, he'll learn something out of it.

(1). CFD forum is not my primary interest. It is just a place to exercise my brain. (2). But if people keep coming back, then I will probably leak some tips from time to time. (2). CFD is the way to go and it has a bright future. How to do it right, is perhaps the key issue. I have not touched that issue yet. So, don't go away, keep tuned to this channel.